Compare the interactions between the teachers and their students and the interactions between students. / Comparez les interactions entre les profs et leurs élèves et les interactions des étèves entre eux.
Dans les deux film, on retrouve cette notion très importante du respect. Il y a trois type de pays : ceux qui fondent leurs lois sur la justice (pays occidentaux surtout), ceux qui les fondent sur le respect (pays musulmans surtout) et ceux qui fondé sur la terreur (pays communiste et dictatoriaux). En France, l'école est donc fondé sur la justice. Le respect des autres passe après. Et sous couvert de la justice, les professeurs se permettent de prendre des droits sur leurs élèves. Dans le film "Dangerous Mind", le respect prime. Toute personne a droit aux respect, et cherche à se faire respecter. Cela peux leur valoir des coups, ou même la mort. Mais les professeurs savent que pour avoir raison, il faut obligatoirement chercher le respect de ses étudiant, en les respectant d'abord eux !
D'après ce que j'ai constaté, dans le film "Dangerous Mind" la relation professeur élève est totalement différente de celle dans "Entre les murs". En effet, dans "Dangerous Mind" la professeur a cherché de se faméliariser avec ses élèves en cherchant à leurs aider dans leurs problèmes personnels, aussi le fait que les élèves appellent leur professeur par son prénom et le fait de ne pas réagir méchament lors du manque du respcet envers elle. Contrairement au "Entre les murs", le professeur n'accepte pas l'idée que l'élève s'adresse à lui en le tutoyant, de plus, il oblige les élèves de s'excuser formellement pour tout comportement impoli et il s'adresse à l'administration lors tout problème considéré hors de sa responsabilité. Mais cela reflète-t-il la réalité dans les différents environnements Français et Americain?
Effectivement, on remarque une grande différence entre les comportements des deux professeurs. Cependant, je tiens à répondre à la question d'Amina pour ce qui est de l'environnement français en lui précisant qu'effectivement, les professeurs accentuent vrament l'importance de la politesse.
Mais de mon point de vue, on est aussi assez éloigné de la réalité dans certain cas, qui peut s'avérer bien pire. Alors pour moi ce n'est pas choquant de vouloir accentuer sur la politesse, plus que sur la convivialité, même si c'est important. On ne sait pas si ça aurait le même impact en France que celui que ça a dans le film "Dangerous mind".
Alors moi j'aurais une question pour le MIT. Est-ce que les professeurs agissent exactement comme sa dans votre quotidients? Pour nous, le film "entre les murs" représente assez bien les relations professeur/éléves.
Aprés, il y a une différence d'age entre les deux films. Je pense que c'est à considérer
La lien existant entre professeur et éléve est beaucoup plus fort dans "dangerous mind" que dans "entre les murs".
Dans dangerous mind le professeur se rendait chez l'étudiant lorsque celui-ci avait un probléme. Elle allait jusqu'a l'inviter chez elle pour essayer de resoudre le probléme . c'etait le cas avec emilio.
Cependant en aucun moment nous avons vu une telle relation entre un professeur et son eleve dans "entre les murs".
Les deux films nous présentent des élèves en difficulté, que ce soit scolairement ou socialement. Les méthodes pédagogiques que l'on peut trouver dans les deux longs métrages sont assez semblables comme par exemples l'adaptation à la classe des sujets traités ou la discussion.
En contraste avec similarité, dans le film "Dangerous Mind" l'institutrice semble être plus proche de ses élèves. Par exemples : elle se déplace jusqu'à leur famille, déjeune avec eux ou essaye de résoudre leurs problèmes personnels. Ainsi "Dangerous Mind" semble briser des barrières qui existent dans "Entre les murs". Le fait qu'il n'y a pas de vouvoiement en anglais peut expliquer ces différences.
Les confrontations entre élèves/professeur (ou même élèves/élèves) sont assez réalistes néanmoins cela ne signifie pas que l'on retrouve exactement cette même violence dans toutes les classes en France. Parfois cela se passe mieux de ce que l'on peut voir dans "Entre les murs" mais cela peut être bien pire. Je dis ceci par expérience.
Avez-vous déjà connu ce genre de violence dans votre passé ?
I think Jérome brings up a very good point about the different views of respect that are represented in each of the films. All of the professors in "entre les murs" are very intent on seeking justice and inflicting discipline on the students in order to teach them respect. In "dangerous minds" The teacher is more itnerested in relating to the students on a personal level, which earns their respect in the long run. Rather than trying to force her traditional way of teaching on the students, which hadn't worked for the teachers in the past, the professor in "Dangerous Minds" presented the same topics in a more relatable way in order to get their attention. Also, but telling the class that they all started out with an "A" as their grade, she made them more interested in working to keep their grade, as many of the students didn't believe that they could earn an "A" in a class.
@ Julien, I never personally witnessed violence in any of my classes, though I have heard stories of fights that went on in my high school. I think the movie tried to make the violence more of a situation to show how things can get out of hand even when you don't mean to hurt someone. I don't have much experience with that kind of violence so I cannot speak as to how realistic that situation is.
I actually thought the class was more cohesive in the American movie. It seemed that the class was a sort of a clan or community in which the members watched each other's back and had a culture of its own. They generally support each other. When Michelle Pfeifer first comes in she is not part of the clan and must break through the ice and prover herself worthy to be accepted into the community/clan .
In contrast, the students in the French movie often have disagreements among themselves and are definitely not a unifying force against the teacher. For example, when one student doesn't do the reading, another one sucks up to the teacher saying she'd gladly do it. There are constantly little squirmishes about soccer between the students and back and forth insulting each other's team and character. You also have the outlier student who is a goth and when he has the courage to stand up in front of the class to talk about his experiences as a goth and why he's a goth, he is shot down by not only the students and teachers and is clearly not accepted. The teacher seems behaves like just another student - he gets pretty petty at times and starts arguments with them - except the difference between the students and teacher is that if the teacher does something offensive it is okay because he has authority but if the teacher is offended, he has the authority to punish the students. It seemed like a large disparity and very unfair.
I think the main differences between the relationships were a result of the school environment. In "Entre le Murs," all the teachers were struggling and becoming frustrated at the students but hadn't given up on them from the start. He was very firm in his teaching style and even when he met with parents seemed to be very stoic. He thought that he would get through eventually. In "Dangerous Minds," most of the administration seems to have lost interest in helping them so the students forced her, in a way, to change how she taught. The students in DM also seemed to be more of a united front while in ELM they often argued fought with each other. I have seen fights in schools but never in the classroom but I have witness arguining anf being held up something.
Lyan definitely lets her students closer to her from some point of the movie on. I believe the reason is that she becomes more like their friend rather than their professor that is also her only way to cope with the troubles they cause. In "entre les murs" though the teacher keeps the distance between him and his students, they use more formal language most of the time, there is more of that pressure that students feel when being in class. Maybe not pressure is the right word but the atmosphere is not that casual when a teacher is present and teaching. That is mostly seen in the French movie where the established relation student-teacher is kept the same (or at least that's what the teacher is trying to do).
I think the key to the relationship between Lyan and her students was showing them that she was not another authority figure in their lives, but instead someone that the students could go to for help. An example is when Angela went to her for help with Emilio. The students feel that they have enough authority with their parents and the police. I think that they are looking to gain some control in their lives which is why they were so proud of making the other teachers quit. Lyan was special to them because it wasn't just a job for her. She cared about the students unlike the other older figures in their lives.
In Entre Les Murs, Marin tried to use jokes to gain a relationship with his class. However, his students still spoke against him probably because they still saw him as just another authority figure. Unlike Lyan, Marin demanded respect in his classroom. This was shown in the scene where Souleymane left the classroom. Lyan made it clear that her students could leave if they wished to do so, but they would have to deal with the consequence of failing the class.
I find that in the more urban areas as the one shown in Dangerous Minds, it is usually true that students respect a teacher that tries to connect with them. However, the boundary is maintained with the way the students address the teacher. Lyan's students never addressed her as Lyan, they only called her Ms. Johnson.
When I watched these two films, I was surprised at the different ways students addressed the teachers. In "Entre les murs" the students are disrespectful but not to the point where they get up from their seats. These students tend to talk back to the teacher, to argue, and rebel in a relatively passive manner. This was interesting because it shows how structured French society is. Even the most disrespectful person shows some respect to their teachers. In "Dangerous Minds" the students were completely out of line. Not only did they talk when the teacher was talking, they did not sit in their seats. They threw things around. They did not listen at all. The difference in the upbringing of children in these two countries can be seen quite clearly in these scenes, and I do not think this aspect has been dramatized.
On the same note, I was also surprised by how much respect the teachers have for the students, maybe not because it was their choice, but because it was tradition that students sit in on board meetings. In "Dangerous Minds", every decision went through the board, and the students had no say in the outcome. In "Entre les Murs", the students have representatives that sit in on faculty meetings. Is this always the case, in every school? In the US, we have student representatives and class councils but I'm not sure if they sit in on meetings en par with the other teachers and faculty.
In terms of students versus students, there was clearly diversity in both populations in the movies. However, there was definitely more violence and discrimination in the "Dangerous Minds". This could eithe rbe due to racial discrimination in general, or perhaps due to the gang activity in the school area. In "Entre les Murs", there was more tolerance and civility. There are students who came from very different backgrounds and true there were disageements occasionally (like which soccer team is the best) but overall, people accept the fact that someone's mother does not speak English, that a student does not speak French well, etc. This might also be because the students are much younger than those in "Dangerous Minds" and are not too involved in gang activity. What do you think?
I got the feeling that at the end of the film, the students in Entre Les Murs (ELM) did not develop the same level of respect for the teacher as the students in Dangerous Minds (DM) did. Although, the students in ELM were better behaved (relatively) than the students in DM.
The students in ELM and DM, while united overall in their dealings with the teacher, had their own intra-squabbles, like Esmeralda vs. Wei, or Emilio vs. Raul & Gusmaro.
Mr. Marin tried to use wit to deal his student's actions, while Louanne was more creative---she used poetry, home visits, candy, trips, etc. to motivate her students to learn more. Through poetry, and relating the content to her students's background, she was able to get a more effective response from her students than Mr. Marin. (though some of her actions would probably be frowned upon today). Mr. Marin seemed to want to keep his students at a distance - there was definitely a line that he didn't want to cross.
Je pense que généralement en France, lorsqu'un élève a de mauvais résultats, les enseignants pensent que c'est parce que l'élève ne veut pas travailler.
Les enseignants se retrouvent à punir ceux qui ont le plus de difficultés alors que peut être ont-ils besoins tout simplement d'aide et d’écoute, comme l'a compris Lou Anne qui donne une chance et tente de comprendre ses élèves.
Dans ELM, les élèves du début à la fin du film, les élèves ont parlé de la même manière à leur professeur en le tutoyant. Tandis que dans l'autre film, les élèves ont vraiment changé le langage qu'il tenait vis à vis de Mme Johnson, une fois que celle-ci a su les captiver.
Les interactions entre élèves
Dans les deux films nous notons une certaine rivalité entre les élèves. Par exemple dans ELM, Souleymane n'a pas su supporter l'arrivée du nouvel antillais qui jouait mieux au foot que lui. Et dans DM, nous pouvons citer l'exemple de Raùl qui ne s'est pas laissé faire contre Emilio.
The teacher i Dangerous Minds does not act like a typical American teacher. That is what makes the story interesting. This was a story about an exceptional class of misbehaviors. They had problems with authority so she had to bring herself to their level in order to win their respect. Also, she gave them all A's to give them confidence because no one showed confidence in them before. This is not a typical way for teachers to present their grading rubrics.
Comparing the teacher-student relationships:
It still is normal for an American teacher to not care about formalities as much as the teacher in Entre les Murs did. But all teacher have different styles and preferences.
Comme a bien su le noter Juliann, ce ne sont que des films. Il est évident que cela révèle une d'une certaine manière ce qu'est l'éducation en France et en Amérique mais cela n'est pas tout. Il est vrai qu'un professeur est influencé par le système (français ou américain) mais qu'il apporte à ce système son propre style, son emprunte. C'est ainsi que l'on peut constater dans le même système, à L'ENSEIRB-MATMECA par exemple, que des professeurs qui apparemment subissent si je puis dire les mêms lois sont différents. On a des professeurs cool, ceux qui écoutent, ceux qui s'en foutent, etc...., etc...
I think in DM the students presented more of a united front than did the students in ELM. In DM, they not only acted more like a unit, but they also had a "leader" in Emilio who seemed to be the toughest student. Even when they insulted each other, it was clear that Emilio always had the last say, and even Callie tells Ms. Johnson to win over Emilio if she wants the rest of the class to trust her. IN ELM, the classroom was organized like him vs. us, but unlike DM, they did not support each other except along with some clear alliances.
I definitely agree with Amy and Ana. The biggest difference between the student interactions was the camraderie in Dangerous Minds and the quarrelling in Entre les murs. Both sets of students are disrespectful to their teachers, but there seems to be very little fighting between the students in Dangerous Minds except in the one involving Emilio and the other two boys. In contrast, Entre les murs has constant bickering and arguing between the students, especially Souleymane. I feel like he makes it his business to start a fight. Only near the end of the movie, when the girls fought with the teacher about calling them skanks, was there any group unity.
I think that the most important difference was the relationship between the teacher and the student. In ELM, the relationship remained professional and a little distant but the mutual respect improved, which was what was important for them. In DM, the relationship went personal for some cases, where the teacher had a vested interest in the student's well-being and the teacher and student became friends. Trust was more important for them, which I found interesting. I've definitely had a few teachers who have become good friends of mine and I've also had teachers who I've had almost a business type relationship with. Is it weird to see a friendship type of relationship develop between a student and their teacher in France?
In Dangerous Minds I saw that the teacher really cared about understanding the culture and situation of the students, and she modified her judgements of their behavior somewhat based on what she learned about them. I didn't really see this in Entre les Murs, where the teacher emphasized the rules and the traditional way of teaching. The only place I saw a similar sentiment was when he brought up with the teachers that Souleymane could be sent back to Mali, but he wasn't able to actually do anything with that knowledge.
Also in ELM, the teacher demands immediate respect, whereas in DM the teacher believes that the best way to make progress is to earn the respect of the students.
Do you think that the differences between the two situations are entirely cultural, or does the age of the students also play a role?
The ways that the professor in Dangerous Minds and Entre les murs approached their classes were very different.
The Dangerous Minds the professor did her best to win her students over. She gave out prizes for accomplishments and tried to come up with creative lesson plans that students would be interested in. Also, the professor encouraged not only lessons from the book, but also life lessons. She emphasized how learning was a choice, but the right choice to make, and how life is full of choices. In many ways, the professor was not a professor, rather a mentor.
In Entre les Murs, the professors was much more of a traditional professor. He taught in very traditional ways. There was no encouragement to learn about life. He was definitely more of an authority figure in the lives of the students.
At least for the U.S., I think this is a good representation of how teachers are here. Often, I felt like my highschool teachers were more of mentors than professors. The most important lessons they taught me were not from a textbook, but rather through a conversation about life that we had outside of the classroom.
Dans ELM, François n'a jamais traîter ses élèves comme des cas particuliers. Il a toujours exigé d'eux la même qu'il exigerait des autres élèves. Par exemple, il ne supportait pas du tout le registre de ces élèves. Ce qui est d'ailleurs étonnant puisqu'il savait que c'était une classe d'élèves révoltés et donc qu'il devait s'attendre à ces comportements et montrer plus de tolerence. Au contraire de François, Louane n'avait aucune sur sa classe et le premier jour s'est très mal passé. En plus les élèves dans DM avaient un langage beaucoup plus deplacé mais Louane avait plus de patience et plus de tolerence.
Comme l'a dit Amber il y a effectivement dans Dangerous Mind très peu de conflit entre les élèves. Et cela m'a semblé bizarre au premier abord, parce qu'ils sont complétement irrespectueux, vis-à-vis de leur professeur, mais jamais entre eux (sauf l'accrochage avec Emilio). Pour moi, le comportement des élèves d'Entre les murs me semble plus "normal". Parce qu'on sent qu'ils n'en ont pas directement après leur professeur, mais que c'est plus un état d'esprit qu'ils adoptent, et ce avec tout le monde.
Il est possible que mon jugement soit altéré par le fait que j'ai été habitué à voir des comportements similaires à ceux présentés dans Entre les murs.
Il est vrai que François exige un certain respect de la part de ses élèves, mais je pense que cela est dû à leur âge. En effet ils sont à un âge difficile, et je les ai parfois trouvé très insupportables. C'est peut être un moyen de la part de François de leur inculquer de bonne valeurs. Les élèves de Dangerous Minds n'ont pas non plus un comportement exemplaire, mais ils sont plus matures. Si Louanne ne peut pas les "modeler", elle peut toujours se mettre à leur niveau pour pouvoir ensuite gagner leur respect.
In Dangerous Minds, the iteractions between the parents of the students and the teacher are very important. Lou-Anne reaches out the the parents in order to ease the scholastic lives of her students. While sometimes she is unable to help her students further their education if parents refuse to let their children continue high school, most of the time, her visits have positive results. For example when Lou-Anne talks to Raoul's parents telling them probably for the first time, of his great potential. By showing her confidence in him, Raoul and his parents are inspired as well. Lou-Anne tries to be a good influence outside as well as inside of the classroom.
In Entre Les Murs, the interactions between the teachers and parents are ultimately a form of punishment. Teachers never interrupted the family life. Even in the story, the teacher never goes to his students' homes. When necessary, the parents come to the school when there is a problem. Life outside of the classroom is separate from what happens between the walls. In class, there are teachers and outside of class, there are parents. Two different worlds.
I am not sure if I understood Romain's comment but I don't think that the relations between students in ELM are way different than these between students in DM. I mean as well as in DM, in ELM the students support each other when it comes to important decisions as the one for whether their classmate had to be expelled or not. It is true that they seem to argue a lot during the movie but that is because they don't need to be unite at these moment. But when the school and teachers get together to discuss punishments, the students unite and supprot each other.
It seems to be that the biggest difference is that in Dangerous Minds, the teacher has faith in the ability of the students, all of them. She believes they each can and will succeed. She encourages them with positive reinforcement.
In ELM, the teacher only really seems to have faith in one student regarding the self portait. Overall it seems he believes the students to be incompetent. He therefore disrespects them, and this is certainly a self-fufilling prophecy.
In my opinion, ELM shows that there's more solidarity among French students than that of the American students in DM. American Students in DM seem to have the professor and their personal issues as a problem to tackle. In ELM, the students, with the exeption of Souleymane, didn't seem to have extraordinary problems that affected their performance at school.
Also, in DM students had one clear leader: Emilio. In ELM, there was no clear for me who was the true leader: Esmeralda? Khoumba? Souleymane?
I agree with the idea that the students in Dangerous Minds seem to be more conflicted. By instinct, I want to say that it is because the US is mostly made up of immigrants (at one point or another in their family history) and that racial tensions are caused by one's native culture and country. However, as I was watching Entre les Murs, I also see that there is a great amount of diversity in the French classroom. Is there a great deal of racial tension between students of different backgrounds in France as well? Since these children are young, they might not be very violent but in high school or universities, is there more racial tension?
I think that the fact that the teacher in ELM was being respectful due to their age is an interesting point, but then why not the teacher in DM. I don't think the fact that they were more mature had something to do with it since they had more attitude. If anything, I would have used the respect method on the DM students over the ELM students.
I think that Noujoud's comment about the student's ages is an important point about the factors that affect their behaviors. The French students are younger and at the age where they are molded by discipline, so Francois behaves as a disciplinarian. The American students are older less easily molded. They also have more serious and complicated responsibilities and problems to deal with outside of school that cannot be corrected with simple disciplinary action.
Je n'ai pas toujours était à Bordeaux, donc en France métropolitaine je ne sais pas vraiment. Je viens de l'ïle de la Réunion, et chez moi, il n'y a pas vraiment de tension à cause de l'origine de certains élèves.
Il est vrai que dans les deux films, "Dangerous Minds" et "Entre les murs", les tensions en cours sont principalement du aux différences d'origine. Néanmoins, l'impact des différentes origines sont plus apparentes dans "Dangerous Minds" car, je pense que, les étudiens sont plus âgé et assument leurs opinions.
I apologize for the gibberish of my first comment...
Teachers and students
Although DM was a bit dramatic with the teacher going to their houses, I think one thing that makes the schools systems different is that when a child misbehaves or has issues, teachers here (or maybe just the ones i've had) were quick to assume that there were personal problems. That could be because up until high school I have gone to mediocre zoned schools, where the same type of trouble maker situations in the film have occured. I did also have a teacher come visit my house once when I missed a day of school. Are there any situations that you have seen where a teacher has gotten more personal with a student, or is it mostly structured like it is shown in the movie?
En France, les professeurs gardent une certaine distance avec leurs élèves :
Dans la plupart des cas, ce sont les parents qui vont à la rencontre du professeur (à l'école au moment des rencontres parents/professeurs) et non l'inverse.
Un peu moins souvent, les professeurs peuvent demander un rendez-vous avec les parents (le lieu restant à l'école) dans le cas où l'élève est en difficulté scolaire par exemple.
Et dans de très rare cas, le professeur peut demander un rendez-vous en dehors de l'école mais cela reste exceptionnel (en général, il s'agit du professeur principal).
A mon humble avis et pour reprendre ton exemple, aucun professeur n'ira chez l'élève parce qu'il a raté un jour d'école. Il s'agit là peut-être de la principale différence entre un professeur américain et un professeur français.
I agree there is a significant difference between French and American teachers in terms of how far they would go in order to inform parents and help their students. Would you say one method is more effective than the other? Also, in your opinion and experience, are French teachers forbidden to visit parents or is it a personal choice based on traditional culture and behavior?
I don't think teachers in the USA will visit the house of a student if he or she is not in class. There are regulations for that I think and teachers don't need to do anything. In DM she had to do it because (first of all, it's a movie, as we said multiple times) the school was not working the way it is supposed to and she just took the initiative. In my country, teachers in some small villages still go to their students' houses sometimes but in general nobody does that.
These meetings between parents and professors seem like a really good idea to keep parents updated, but also to find out more about them and their personal situation, instead of going to their homes which i think is a little bit too much. We haven't seen this in DM. Do meetings like this exist in US high schools and are they obligatory?
In my high school, we also had parent's council where parents would make suggestions on how to improve school's policy and stuff. Does seomthing like this exist in either country? Do you think it would be a good idea to keep parents that much involved?
(I know this is more a parents relationship topic, but I was carried by the discussion:))
I think ELM started a great topic of pedagogy. I was very interested in the different approaches they took to punish students who misbehave.
I wanted to discuss which of these approaches you think are good ideas?
1. Giving out warnings:doesn't do much, students don't really care
2. Talking to their parents: as a consequence has that students get beaten up
3. Giving each student 6 points and then taking the points away with every bad behavior
4. Reward the students who did well? Give them point or find another way? Is the grade and the knowledge award byitsef? Yes, but is that enough for kids in these schools?
5. Expelling the student? Putting them into another school? Isn't this just avoidance of the problems?
6. Suspensions?? (I know this exist in American schools)
7. More suggestions?
What methods do you think are good/efficient? And what methods (if any), would be the most efficient for students in DM and EML high schools??
In my opinion, I think the 6 points idea is possibly giving too much leeway to students. I know in private schools, some teachers give out violations for bad behavior, and something like that was given out in the elementary school I went to. I think three offenses that are the last straws for teachers are enough to distinguish if a student needs to get a more severe consequence.
On another note, the expulsion of students is kind of avoiding problems, but if a student keeps messing up and you've tried everything else, there's not much a school can keep doing.
Lastly, I think that rewarding students for hard work or work done well is important. I think that when most students see that everyone can get rewarded for doing a good job, it could help them to work more. I know this isn't true in all cases, but for some students, getting in trouble is their way to get recognition even if it is for bad behavior.
Do the teachers keep that distance even after you're done with their class? Also, this is a little off topic, but if you had a private tutor, would they be in the same category as a teacher? A certain distance away, or is it common to have friends tutor friends or to become friends with your private tutor? Where does the separation lie?
I think the bullet-point list is a great idea! However, I think the troubles come in when we need to distinguish the severity of the actions.
For example, in my high school we had to wear student IDs. If you forget it 5 times in a school year, you would get an out-of-school suspension. From my perspective, that was a little rough. I mean, a few forgetful days, and an out of school suspension? It wasn't the student doing anything on purpose to harm or hurt anyone or anything.
Do you have any ideas on how we could also integrate severity into a system like that? I think thats often the greatest challenges of discplining children.
I was very surprised with the explusion. The school seemed to think it very standard - if a child misbehaves onto a new school. I do not see how that could possibly be of any help at all to the student. I went to a small private school and with discipline the goal was always to help to change the students behavoir. I think this was even moreso the case at my school because it was so small, but maybe this is true in general.
From the discussion, it seems as though this might not be so much the case in French culture? Is this the case?
I was also surprised at the expulsion, It felt like the movie didn't have a conclusion. Perhaps I am too accustomed to American movies but where is my happy ending? Where is the conclusion? What is the overall one-sentence moral that the film is trying to convey? I felt like I was left hanging in the middle of the movie.
Dans "ELM", c'est vrai que l'expulsion de l'élève perturbateur représente le dénouement de l'action. Ce qui m'a aussi surprise dans le film, c'est qu'après l'expulsion, on ne voit pas la réaction des autres élèves par rapport à cet événement. A croire qu'ils ont totalement oublié leur camarade de classe, après tout ce remuménage. Il peut aussi ce rappeller que le professeur principal ne croit pas vraiment à l'efficacité du conseil displinaire. L'intervention du conseil disciplinaire est en quelque sorte un aveu d'échec pour l'équipe pédagogique de l'école. Ici, pas de "happy end", juste la triste expulsion d'un élève au sein d'un système éducatif rigide.
La discipline à l'école est faite certe pour qu'on adopte la bonne attitude, mais je ne pense pas qu'elle soit là pour changer notre comportement. On peut dire qu'il y a un cadre de vie dans une classe qui est propre au professeur qui y enseigne.
J'ai bien aimé la liste de mesure à prendre comme sanction displinaire de Jovana. Moi je pense que la suspension est la sanction la plus instructive à condition que l'élève fasse une réflexion sur lui même.
I just though of something interesting. I believe most of the French accepted hitting children as punishment when the children are too young to understand other forms of discipline. Does this happen in school for young children? Do teachers have that right as well when it comes to disciplining children? I think in Singapore, they still hit children, though this practice is rather outdated.
I am also curious about suspensions like Jovana. For us, suspensions mean you cannot come to school for several days and then you may return. It is permanently on your disciplinary record. Also, does detention exist? I know it kind of varies in every school how detention works. In my high school, it consisted of sitting in the principal's office not being able to do anything for several hours. The best Hollywood depiction of detention is the movie "The Breakfast Club."
The school I went to did not have detentions. At most one had to reflect upon one's behavior. For one class I had to write a one page paper explaining why I was not paying attention.
We also had quiet time on wednesdays when the entire school would sit quietly and reflect. This gave a sense of community. Do any french schools have this?
I don't know about the French culture, but when my dad went to school professors had the right to hit the child as a punishment. Actually, they were rather creative. They had a really thin branch and then hit the kids across their palms. (It apparently hurts like hell) Or children had to kneel in the pile of dry corn. Don't worry, people don't do these things any more in Bosnia or Serbia. :)
The only kind of detention we used to had, in primary school, is for a student to stand in the corner, alone, and think about his actions. But I think things like these are only applicable to younger children because they are much more obedient. Can you imagine forcing Emilio to do any kind of detention? I feel he wouldn't do it out of spite.
Suspentions, I'm not sure. I thought the only thing they actually do is affect your school record.So what do you do with kids who don't care about school record?
In the end, should we try to inforce rules with punishments, or try to be nice and personal as the prof in DM? But such an approach requires a lot of effort and sacrifice from the professor. Do you think that majority of them just wouldn't go that far for a job?
Hah, I will support Jovana and say that the kind of "every teacher decides what to do to punish the student" rules applied before in Bulgaria too. Not anymore, now students have more rights than teachers do actually so teachers need to be very careful. I know because both my parents are teachers and they told me how arrogant kids are but they can't do a lot to stop them, teachers can't even kick you out of class if you are noisy. So, what happened with the French teacher when the girls reported that he insulted them will probably happen in my country 10 times worse for the teacher - parents will come and defend their kids, different organizations will speak up and people will easily forget that students are so disrespectful and will just blame the teacher for everything. What happens in France if a teacher insults a student that is behaving disrespectfully? Is the teacher in big trouble no matter what or the student’s behavior will be taken into account as well?
The current discussion of student's versus teacher's rights in the classroom brings up some interesting ideas. What do you think is the reason for the fact that over time different countries give more and more rights to students while taking away the teacher's authority? Do you think this is happening in France?
I'm pretty sure hitting children is still a fairly accepted form of punishment in many countries around the world. My aunt is an elementary teacher in China and she says that the most effective form of punishment is hitting with a ruler. Just as before, as with the supermarket example, hitting a child is often seen as a way to help them learn and grow.
I am also curious about how detentions work in France. The school I went to, we had detentions for small things like being late to school and dress code violations.
In the movies ELM and DM, I feel like presence of detentions wouldn't do much for the kids. I feel like it's there to scare the good kids but for the bad ones they probably don't care and maybe wouldn't even go.
Cela dépend des écoles, mais en général la retenue n'est pas la première punition à laquelle pense un professeur. Il peut par exemple lui donner des devoirs supplémentaires.
Si l'élève est toujours indiscipliné, on peut lui donner une retenue.
Mais comme tu le dis, je pense que ce genre de punition ne fait aucun effet aux élèves du film ELM.
Discussion
Compare the interactions between the teachers and their students and the interactions between students. / Comparez les interactions entre les profs et leurs élèves et les interactions des étèves entre eux.
Dans les deux film, on retrouve cette notion très importante du respect. Il y a trois type de pays : ceux qui fondent leurs lois sur la justice (pays occidentaux surtout), ceux qui les fondent sur le respect (pays musulmans surtout) et ceux qui fondé sur la terreur (pays communiste et dictatoriaux).
En France, l'école est donc fondé sur la justice. Le respect des autres passe après. Et sous couvert de la justice, les professeurs se permettent de prendre des droits sur leurs élèves. Dans le film "Dangerous Mind", le respect prime. Toute personne a droit aux respect, et cherche à se faire respecter. Cela peux leur valoir des coups, ou même la mort. Mais les professeurs savent que pour avoir raison, il faut obligatoirement chercher le respect de ses étudiant, en les respectant d'abord eux !
D'après ce que j'ai constaté, dans le film "Dangerous Mind" la relation professeur élève est totalement différente de celle dans "Entre les murs". En effet, dans "Dangerous Mind" la professeur a cherché de se faméliariser avec ses élèves en cherchant à leurs aider dans leurs problèmes personnels, aussi le fait que les élèves appellent leur professeur par son prénom et le fait de ne pas réagir méchament lors du manque du respcet envers elle. Contrairement au "Entre les murs", le professeur n'accepte pas l'idée que l'élève s'adresse à lui en le tutoyant, de plus, il oblige les élèves de s'excuser formellement pour tout comportement impoli et il s'adresse à l'administration lors tout problème considéré hors de sa responsabilité. Mais cela reflète-t-il la réalité dans les différents environnements Français et Americain?
Effectivement, on remarque une grande différence entre les comportements des deux professeurs. Cependant, je tiens à répondre à la question d'Amina pour ce qui est de l'environnement français en lui précisant qu'effectivement, les professeurs accentuent vrament l'importance de la politesse.
Mais de mon point de vue, on est aussi assez éloigné de la réalité dans certain cas, qui peut s'avérer bien pire. Alors pour moi ce n'est pas choquant de vouloir accentuer sur la politesse, plus que sur la convivialité, même si c'est important. On ne sait pas si ça aurait le même impact en France que celui que ça a dans le film "Dangerous mind".
Alors moi j'aurais une question pour le MIT. Est-ce que les professeurs agissent exactement comme sa dans votre quotidients? Pour nous, le film "entre les murs" représente assez bien les relations professeur/éléves.
Aprés, il y a une différence d'age entre les deux films. Je pense que c'est à considérer
Bonjour,
La lien existant entre professeur et éléve est beaucoup plus fort dans "dangerous mind" que dans "entre les murs".
Dans dangerous mind le professeur se rendait chez l'étudiant lorsque celui-ci avait un probléme. Elle allait jusqu'a l'inviter chez elle pour essayer de resoudre le probléme . c'etait le cas avec emilio.
Cependant en aucun moment nous avons vu une telle relation entre un professeur et son eleve dans "entre les murs".
Les deux films nous présentent des élèves en difficulté, que ce soit scolairement ou socialement. Les méthodes pédagogiques que l'on peut trouver dans les deux longs métrages sont assez semblables comme par exemples l'adaptation à la classe des sujets traités ou la discussion.
En contraste avec similarité, dans le film "Dangerous Mind" l'institutrice semble être plus proche de ses élèves. Par exemples : elle se déplace jusqu'à leur famille, déjeune avec eux ou essaye de résoudre leurs problèmes personnels. Ainsi "Dangerous Mind" semble briser des barrières qui existent dans "Entre les murs". Le fait qu'il n'y a pas de vouvoiement en anglais peut expliquer ces différences.
Les confrontations entre élèves/professeur (ou même élèves/élèves) sont assez réalistes néanmoins cela ne signifie pas que l'on retrouve exactement cette même violence dans toutes les classes en France. Parfois cela se passe mieux de ce que l'on peut voir dans "Entre les murs" mais cela peut être bien pire. Je dis ceci par expérience.
Avez-vous déjà connu ce genre de violence dans votre passé ?
I think Jérome brings up a very good point about the different views of respect that are represented in each of the films. All of the professors in "entre les murs" are very intent on seeking justice and inflicting discipline on the students in order to teach them respect. In "dangerous minds" The teacher is more itnerested in relating to the students on a personal level, which earns their respect in the long run. Rather than trying to force her traditional way of teaching on the students, which hadn't worked for the teachers in the past, the professor in "Dangerous Minds" presented the same topics in a more relatable way in order to get their attention. Also, but telling the class that they all started out with an "A" as their grade, she made them more interested in working to keep their grade, as many of the students didn't believe that they could earn an "A" in a class.
@ Julien, I never personally witnessed violence in any of my classes, though I have heard stories of fights that went on in my high school. I think the movie tried to make the violence more of a situation to show how things can get out of hand even when you don't mean to hurt someone. I don't have much experience with that kind of violence so I cannot speak as to how realistic that situation is.
I actually thought the class was more cohesive in the American movie. It seemed that the class was a sort of a clan or community in which the members watched each other's back and had a culture of its own. They generally support each other. When Michelle Pfeifer first comes in she is not part of the clan and must break through the ice and prover herself worthy to be accepted into the community/clan .
In contrast, the students in the French movie often have disagreements among themselves and are definitely not a unifying force against the teacher. For example, when one student doesn't do the reading, another one sucks up to the teacher saying she'd gladly do it. There are constantly little squirmishes about soccer between the students and back and forth insulting each other's team and character. You also have the outlier student who is a goth and when he has the courage to stand up in front of the class to talk about his experiences as a goth and why he's a goth, he is shot down by not only the students and teachers and is clearly not accepted. The teacher seems behaves like just another student - he gets pretty petty at times and starts arguments with them - except the difference between the students and teacher is that if the teacher does something offensive it is okay because he has authority but if the teacher is offended, he has the authority to punish the students. It seemed like a large disparity and very unfair.
I think the main differences between the relationships were a result of the school environment. In "Entre le Murs," all the teachers were struggling and becoming frustrated at the students but hadn't given up on them from the start. He was very firm in his teaching style and even when he met with parents seemed to be very stoic. He thought that he would get through eventually. In "Dangerous Minds," most of the administration seems to have lost interest in helping them so the students forced her, in a way, to change how she taught. The students in DM also seemed to be more of a united front while in ELM they often argued fought with each other. I have seen fights in schools but never in the classroom but I have witness arguining anf being held up something.
Lyan definitely lets her students closer to her from some point of the movie on. I believe the reason is that she becomes more like their friend rather than their professor that is also her only way to cope with the troubles they cause. In "entre les murs" though the teacher keeps the distance between him and his students, they use more formal language most of the time, there is more of that pressure that students feel when being in class. Maybe not pressure is the right word but the atmosphere is not that casual when a teacher is present and teaching. That is mostly seen in the French movie where the established relation student-teacher is kept the same (or at least that's what the teacher is trying to do).
I think the key to the relationship between Lyan and her students was showing them that she was not another authority figure in their lives, but instead someone that the students could go to for help. An example is when Angela went to her for help with Emilio. The students feel that they have enough authority with their parents and the police. I think that they are looking to gain some control in their lives which is why they were so proud of making the other teachers quit. Lyan was special to them because it wasn't just a job for her. She cared about the students unlike the other older figures in their lives.
In Entre Les Murs, Marin tried to use jokes to gain a relationship with his class. However, his students still spoke against him probably because they still saw him as just another authority figure. Unlike Lyan, Marin demanded respect in his classroom. This was shown in the scene where Souleymane left the classroom. Lyan made it clear that her students could leave if they wished to do so, but they would have to deal with the consequence of failing the class.
I find that in the more urban areas as the one shown in Dangerous Minds, it is usually true that students respect a teacher that tries to connect with them. However, the boundary is maintained with the way the students address the teacher. Lyan's students never addressed her as Lyan, they only called her Ms. Johnson.
When I watched these two films, I was surprised at the different ways students addressed the teachers. In "Entre les murs" the students are disrespectful but not to the point where they get up from their seats. These students tend to talk back to the teacher, to argue, and rebel in a relatively passive manner. This was interesting because it shows how structured French society is. Even the most disrespectful person shows some respect to their teachers. In "Dangerous Minds" the students were completely out of line. Not only did they talk when the teacher was talking, they did not sit in their seats. They threw things around. They did not listen at all. The difference in the upbringing of children in these two countries can be seen quite clearly in these scenes, and I do not think this aspect has been dramatized.
On the same note, I was also surprised by how much respect the teachers have for the students, maybe not because it was their choice, but because it was tradition that students sit in on board meetings. In "Dangerous Minds", every decision went through the board, and the students had no say in the outcome. In "Entre les Murs", the students have representatives that sit in on faculty meetings. Is this always the case, in every school? In the US, we have student representatives and class councils but I'm not sure if they sit in on meetings en par with the other teachers and faculty.
In terms of students versus students, there was clearly diversity in both populations in the movies. However, there was definitely more violence and discrimination in the "Dangerous Minds". This could eithe rbe due to racial discrimination in general, or perhaps due to the gang activity in the school area. In "Entre les Murs", there was more tolerance and civility. There are students who came from very different backgrounds and true there were disageements occasionally (like which soccer team is the best) but overall, people accept the fact that someone's mother does not speak English, that a student does not speak French well, etc. This might also be because the students are much younger than those in "Dangerous Minds" and are not too involved in gang activity. What do you think?
I got the feeling that at the end of the film, the students in Entre Les Murs (ELM) did not develop the same level of respect for the teacher as the students in Dangerous Minds (DM) did. Although, the students in ELM were better behaved (relatively) than the students in DM.
The students in ELM and DM, while united overall in their dealings with the teacher, had their own intra-squabbles, like Esmeralda vs. Wei, or Emilio vs. Raul & Gusmaro.
Mr. Marin tried to use wit to deal his student's actions, while Louanne was more creative---she used poetry, home visits, candy, trips, etc. to motivate her students to learn more. Through poetry, and relating the content to her students's background, she was able to get a more effective response from her students than Mr. Marin. (though some of her actions would probably be frowned upon today). Mr. Marin seemed to want to keep his students at a distance - there was definitely a line that he didn't want to cross.
Je pense que généralement en France, lorsqu'un élève a de mauvais résultats, les enseignants pensent que c'est parce que l'élève ne veut pas travailler.
Les enseignants se retrouvent à punir ceux qui ont le plus de difficultés alors que peut être ont-ils besoins tout simplement d'aide et d’écoute, comme l'a compris Lou Anne qui donne une chance et tente de comprendre ses élèves.
Les interactions entre professeurs et élèves
Dans ELM, les élèves du début à la fin du film, les élèves ont parlé de la même manière à leur professeur en le tutoyant. Tandis que dans l'autre film, les élèves ont vraiment changé le langage qu'il tenait vis à vis de Mme Johnson, une fois que celle-ci a su les captiver.
Les interactions entre élèves
Dans les deux films nous notons une certaine rivalité entre les élèves. Par exemple dans ELM, Souleymane n'a pas su supporter l'arrivée du nouvel antillais qui jouait mieux au foot que lui. Et dans DM, nous pouvons citer l'exemple de Raùl qui ne s'est pas laissé faire contre Emilio.
Benji,
Holywood:
The teacher i Dangerous Minds does not act like a typical American teacher. That is what makes the story interesting. This was a story about an exceptional class of misbehaviors. They had problems with authority so she had to bring herself to their level in order to win their respect. Also, she gave them all A's to give them confidence because no one showed confidence in them before. This is not a typical way for teachers to present their grading rubrics.
Comparing the teacher-student relationships:
It still is normal for an American teacher to not care about formalities as much as the teacher in Entre les Murs did. But all teacher have different styles and preferences.
Le style des professeurs
Comme a bien su le noter Juliann, ce ne sont que des films. Il est évident que cela révèle une d'une certaine manière ce qu'est l'éducation en France et en Amérique mais cela n'est pas tout. Il est vrai qu'un professeur est influencé par le système (français ou américain) mais qu'il apporte à ce système son propre style, son emprunte. C'est ainsi que l'on peut constater dans le même système, à L'ENSEIRB-MATMECA par exemple, que des professeurs qui apparemment subissent si je puis dire les mêms lois sont différents. On a des professeurs cool, ceux qui écoutent, ceux qui s'en foutent, etc...., etc...
I think in DM the students presented more of a united front than did the students in ELM. In DM, they not only acted more like a unit, but they also had a "leader" in Emilio who seemed to be the toughest student. Even when they insulted each other, it was clear that Emilio always had the last say, and even Callie tells Ms. Johnson to win over Emilio if she wants the rest of the class to trust her. IN ELM, the classroom was organized like him vs. us, but unlike DM, they did not support each other except along with some clear alliances.
I definitely agree with Amy and Ana. The biggest difference between the student interactions was the camraderie in Dangerous Minds and the quarrelling in Entre les murs. Both sets of students are disrespectful to their teachers, but there seems to be very little fighting between the students in Dangerous Minds except in the one involving Emilio and the other two boys. In contrast, Entre les murs has constant bickering and arguing between the students, especially Souleymane. I feel like he makes it his business to start a fight. Only near the end of the movie, when the girls fought with the teacher about calling them skanks, was there any group unity.
Between students and teachers:
I think that the most important difference was the relationship between the teacher and the student. In ELM, the relationship remained professional and a little distant but the mutual respect improved, which was what was important for them. In DM, the relationship went personal for some cases, where the teacher had a vested interest in the student's well-being and the teacher and student became friends. Trust was more important for them, which I found interesting. I've definitely had a few teachers who have become good friends of mine and I've also had teachers who I've had almost a business type relationship with. Is it weird to see a friendship type of relationship develop between a student and their teacher in France?
Students and Teachers:
In Dangerous Minds I saw that the teacher really cared about understanding the culture and situation of the students, and she modified her judgements of their behavior somewhat based on what she learned about them. I didn't really see this in Entre les Murs, where the teacher emphasized the rules and the traditional way of teaching. The only place I saw a similar sentiment was when he brought up with the teachers that Souleymane could be sent back to Mali, but he wasn't able to actually do anything with that knowledge.
Also in ELM, the teacher demands immediate respect, whereas in DM the teacher believes that the best way to make progress is to earn the respect of the students.
Do you think that the differences between the two situations are entirely cultural, or does the age of the students also play a role?
The ways that the professor in Dangerous Minds and Entre les murs approached their classes were very different.
The Dangerous Minds the professor did her best to win her students over. She gave out prizes for accomplishments and tried to come up with creative lesson plans that students would be interested in. Also, the professor encouraged not only lessons from the book, but also life lessons. She emphasized how learning was a choice, but the right choice to make, and how life is full of choices. In many ways, the professor was not a professor, rather a mentor.
In Entre les Murs, the professors was much more of a traditional professor. He taught in very traditional ways. There was no encouragement to learn about life. He was definitely more of an authority figure in the lives of the students.
At least for the U.S., I think this is a good representation of how teachers are here. Often, I felt like my highschool teachers were more of mentors than professors. The most important lessons they taught me were not from a textbook, but rather through a conversation about life that we had outside of the classroom.
Dans ELM, François n'a jamais traîter ses élèves comme des cas particuliers. Il a toujours exigé d'eux la même qu'il exigerait des autres élèves. Par exemple, il ne supportait pas du tout le registre de ces élèves. Ce qui est d'ailleurs étonnant puisqu'il savait que c'était une classe d'élèves révoltés et donc qu'il devait s'attendre à ces comportements et montrer plus de tolerence. Au contraire de François, Louane n'avait aucune sur sa classe et le premier jour s'est très mal passé. En plus les élèves dans DM avaient un langage beaucoup plus deplacé mais Louane avait plus de patience et plus de tolerence.
Relation entre élèves:
Comme l'a dit Amber il y a effectivement dans Dangerous Mind très peu de conflit entre les élèves. Et cela m'a semblé bizarre au premier abord, parce qu'ils sont complétement irrespectueux, vis-à-vis de leur professeur, mais jamais entre eux (sauf l'accrochage avec Emilio). Pour moi, le comportement des élèves d'Entre les murs me semble plus "normal". Parce qu'on sent qu'ils n'en ont pas directement après leur professeur, mais que c'est plus un état d'esprit qu'ils adoptent, et ce avec tout le monde.
Il est possible que mon jugement soit altéré par le fait que j'ai été habitué à voir des comportements similaires à ceux présentés dans Entre les murs.
relations entre les professeurs et leurs élèves.
Il est vrai que François exige un certain respect de la part de ses élèves, mais je pense que cela est dû à leur âge. En effet ils sont à un âge difficile, et je les ai parfois trouvé très insupportables. C'est peut être un moyen de la part de François de leur inculquer de bonne valeurs. Les élèves de Dangerous Minds n'ont pas non plus un comportement exemplaire, mais ils sont plus matures. Si Louanne ne peut pas les "modeler", elle peut toujours se mettre à leur niveau pour pouvoir ensuite gagner leur respect.
Interactions between the teacher and the parents
In Dangerous Minds, the iteractions between the parents of the students and the teacher are very important. Lou-Anne reaches out the the parents in order to ease the scholastic lives of her students. While sometimes she is unable to help her students further their education if parents refuse to let their children continue high school, most of the time, her visits have positive results. For example when Lou-Anne talks to Raoul's parents telling them probably for the first time, of his great potential. By showing her confidence in him, Raoul and his parents are inspired as well. Lou-Anne tries to be a good influence outside as well as inside of the classroom.
In Entre Les Murs, the interactions between the teachers and parents are ultimately a form of punishment. Teachers never interrupted the family life. Even in the story, the teacher never goes to his students' homes. When necessary, the parents come to the school when there is a problem. Life outside of the classroom is separate from what happens between the walls. In class, there are teachers and outside of class, there are parents. Two different worlds.
I am not sure if I understood Romain's comment but I don't think that the relations between students in ELM are way different than these between students in DM. I mean as well as in DM, in ELM the students support each other when it comes to important decisions as the one for whether their classmate had to be expelled or not. It is true that they seem to argue a lot during the movie but that is because they don't need to be unite at these moment. But when the school and teachers get together to discuss punishments, the students unite and supprot each other.
It seems to be that the biggest difference is that in Dangerous Minds, the teacher has faith in the ability of the students, all of them. She believes they each can and will succeed. She encourages them with positive reinforcement.
In ELM, the teacher only really seems to have faith in one student regarding the self portait. Overall it seems he believes the students to be incompetent. He therefore disrespects them, and this is certainly a self-fufilling prophecy.
Relationship between students
In my opinion, ELM shows that there's more solidarity among French students than that of the American students in DM. American Students in DM seem to have the professor and their personal issues as a problem to tackle. In ELM, the students, with the exeption of Souleymane, didn't seem to have extraordinary problems that affected their performance at school.
Also, in DM students had one clear leader: Emilio. In ELM, there was no clear for me who was the true leader: Esmeralda? Khoumba? Souleymane?
@ Romain
I agree with the idea that the students in Dangerous Minds seem to be more conflicted. By instinct, I want to say that it is because the US is mostly made up of immigrants (at one point or another in their family history) and that racial tensions are caused by one's native culture and country. However, as I was watching Entre les Murs, I also see that there is a great amount of diversity in the French classroom. Is there a great deal of racial tension between students of different backgrounds in France as well? Since these children are young, they might not be very violent but in high school or universities, is there more racial tension?
I think that the fact that the teacher in ELM was being respectful due to their age is an interesting point, but then why not the teacher in DM. I don't think the fact that they were more mature had something to do with it since they had more attitude. If anything, I would have used the respect method on the DM students over the ELM students.
But that was a good point to make. Thank you
I think that Noujoud's comment about the student's ages is an important point about the factors that affect their behaviors. The French students are younger and at the age where they are molded by discipline, so Francois behaves as a disciplinarian. The American students are older less easily molded. They also have more serious and complicated responsibilities and problems to deal with outside of school that cannot be corrected with simple disciplinary action.
@Lucy
Je n'ai pas toujours était à Bordeaux, donc en France métropolitaine je ne sais pas vraiment. Je viens de l'ïle de la Réunion, et chez moi, il n'y a pas vraiment de tension à cause de l'origine de certains élèves.
Il est vrai que dans les deux films, "Dangerous Minds" et "Entre les murs", les tensions en cours sont principalement du aux différences d'origine. Néanmoins, l'impact des différentes origines sont plus apparentes dans "Dangerous Minds" car, je pense que, les étudiens sont plus âgé et assument leurs opinions.
I apologize for the gibberish of my first comment...
Teachers and students
Although DM was a bit dramatic with the teacher going to their houses, I think one thing that makes the schools systems different is that when a child misbehaves or has issues, teachers here (or maybe just the ones i've had) were quick to assume that there were personal problems. That could be because up until high school I have gone to mediocre zoned schools, where the same type of trouble maker situations in the film have occured. I did also have a teacher come visit my house once when I missed a day of school. Are there any situations that you have seen where a teacher has gotten more personal with a student, or is it mostly structured like it is shown in the movie?
@ Melanie
En France, les professeurs gardent une certaine distance avec leurs élèves :
Dans la plupart des cas, ce sont les parents qui vont à la rencontre du professeur (à l'école au moment des rencontres parents/professeurs) et non l'inverse.
Un peu moins souvent, les professeurs peuvent demander un rendez-vous avec les parents (le lieu restant à l'école) dans le cas où l'élève est en difficulté scolaire par exemple.
Et dans de très rare cas, le professeur peut demander un rendez-vous en dehors de l'école mais cela reste exceptionnel (en général, il s'agit du professeur principal).
A mon humble avis et pour reprendre ton exemple, aucun professeur n'ira chez l'élève parce qu'il a raté un jour d'école. Il s'agit là peut-être de la principale différence entre un professeur américain et un professeur français.
@ Julien
I agree there is a significant difference between French and American teachers in terms of how far they would go in order to inform parents and help their students. Would you say one method is more effective than the other? Also, in your opinion and experience, are French teachers forbidden to visit parents or is it a personal choice based on traditional culture and behavior?
@Julien
I don't think teachers in the USA will visit the house of a student if he or she is not in class. There are regulations for that I think and teachers don't need to do anything. In DM she had to do it because (first of all, it's a movie, as we said multiple times) the school was not working the way it is supposed to and she just took the initiative. In my country, teachers in some small villages still go to their students' houses sometimes but in general nobody does that.
These meetings between parents and professors seem like a really good idea to keep parents updated, but also to find out more about them and their personal situation, instead of going to their homes which i think is a little bit too much. We haven't seen this in DM. Do meetings like this exist in US high schools and are they obligatory?
In my high school, we also had parent's council where parents would make suggestions on how to improve school's policy and stuff. Does seomthing like this exist in either country? Do you think it would be a good idea to keep parents that much involved?
(I know this is more a parents relationship topic, but I was carried by the discussion:))
I think ELM started a great topic of pedagogy. I was very interested in the different approaches they took to punish students who misbehave.
I wanted to discuss which of these approaches you think are good ideas?
1. Giving out warnings:doesn't do much, students don't really care
2. Talking to their parents: as a consequence has that students get beaten up
3. Giving each student 6 points and then taking the points away with every bad behavior
4. Reward the students who did well? Give them point or find another way? Is the grade and the knowledge award byitsef? Yes, but is that enough for kids in these schools?
5. Expelling the student? Putting them into another school? Isn't this just avoidance of the problems?
6. Suspensions?? (I know this exist in American schools)
7. More suggestions?
What methods do you think are good/efficient? And what methods (if any), would be the most efficient for students in DM and EML high schools??
In my opinion, I think the 6 points idea is possibly giving too much leeway to students. I know in private schools, some teachers give out violations for bad behavior, and something like that was given out in the elementary school I went to. I think three offenses that are the last straws for teachers are enough to distinguish if a student needs to get a more severe consequence.
On another note, the expulsion of students is kind of avoiding problems, but if a student keeps messing up and you've tried everything else, there's not much a school can keep doing.
Lastly, I think that rewarding students for hard work or work done well is important. I think that when most students see that everyone can get rewarded for doing a good job, it could help them to work more. I know this isn't true in all cases, but for some students, getting in trouble is their way to get recognition even if it is for bad behavior.
@ Julien
Do the teachers keep that distance even after you're done with their class? Also, this is a little off topic, but if you had a private tutor, would they be in the same category as a teacher? A certain distance away, or is it common to have friends tutor friends or to become friends with your private tutor? Where does the separation lie?
@Jovanna
I think the bullet-point list is a great idea! However, I think the troubles come in when we need to distinguish the severity of the actions.
For example, in my high school we had to wear student IDs. If you forget it 5 times in a school year, you would get an out-of-school suspension. From my perspective, that was a little rough. I mean, a few forgetful days, and an out of school suspension? It wasn't the student doing anything on purpose to harm or hurt anyone or anything.
Do you have any ideas on how we could also integrate severity into a system like that? I think thats often the greatest challenges of discplining children.
Inspired by Jovana's list.
I was very surprised with the explusion. The school seemed to think it very standard - if a child misbehaves onto a new school. I do not see how that could possibly be of any help at all to the student. I went to a small private school and with discipline the goal was always to help to change the students behavoir. I think this was even moreso the case at my school because it was so small, but maybe this is true in general.
From the discussion, it seems as though this might not be so much the case in French culture? Is this the case?
I was also surprised at the expulsion, It felt like the movie didn't have a conclusion. Perhaps I am too accustomed to American movies but where is my happy ending? Where is the conclusion? What is the overall one-sentence moral that the film is trying to convey? I felt like I was left hanging in the middle of the movie.
@Amy
Dans "ELM", c'est vrai que l'expulsion de l'élève perturbateur représente le dénouement de l'action. Ce qui m'a aussi surprise dans le film, c'est qu'après l'expulsion, on ne voit pas la réaction des autres élèves par rapport à cet événement. A croire qu'ils ont totalement oublié leur camarade de classe, après tout ce remuménage. Il peut aussi ce rappeller que le professeur principal ne croit pas vraiment à l'efficacité du conseil displinaire. L'intervention du conseil disciplinaire est en quelque sorte un aveu d'échec pour l'équipe pédagogique de l'école. Ici, pas de "happy end", juste la triste expulsion d'un élève au sein d'un système éducatif rigide.
La discipline à l'école est faite certe pour qu'on adopte la bonne attitude, mais je ne pense pas qu'elle soit là pour changer notre comportement. On peut dire qu'il y a un cadre de vie dans une classe qui est propre au professeur qui y enseigne.
J'ai bien aimé la liste de mesure à prendre comme sanction displinaire de Jovana. Moi je pense que la suspension est la sanction la plus instructive à condition que l'élève fasse une réflexion sur lui même.
I just though of something interesting. I believe most of the French accepted hitting children as punishment when the children are too young to understand other forms of discipline. Does this happen in school for young children? Do teachers have that right as well when it comes to disciplining children? I think in Singapore, they still hit children, though this practice is rather outdated.
I am also curious about suspensions like Jovana. For us, suspensions mean you cannot come to school for several days and then you may return. It is permanently on your disciplinary record. Also, does detention exist? I know it kind of varies in every school how detention works. In my high school, it consisted of sitting in the principal's office not being able to do anything for several hours. The best Hollywood depiction of detention is the movie "The Breakfast Club."
The school I went to did not have detentions. At most one had to reflect upon one's behavior. For one class I had to write a one page paper explaining why I was not paying attention.
We also had quiet time on wednesdays when the entire school would sit quietly and reflect. This gave a sense of community. Do any french schools have this?
@Lucy
I don't know about the French culture, but when my dad went to school professors had the right to hit the child as a punishment. Actually, they were rather creative. They had a really thin branch and then hit the kids across their palms. (It apparently hurts like hell) Or children had to kneel in the pile of dry corn. Don't worry, people don't do these things any more in Bosnia or Serbia. :)
The only kind of detention we used to had, in primary school, is for a student to stand in the corner, alone, and think about his actions. But I think things like these are only applicable to younger children because they are much more obedient. Can you imagine forcing Emilio to do any kind of detention? I feel he wouldn't do it out of spite.
Suspentions, I'm not sure. I thought the only thing they actually do is affect your school record.So what do you do with kids who don't care about school record?
In the end, should we try to inforce rules with punishments, or try to be nice and personal as the prof in DM? But such an approach requires a lot of effort and sacrifice from the professor. Do you think that majority of them just wouldn't go that far for a job?
One more thing. When Durrels mom takes him out of school, I was wondering is that even legal? How old is he?
What are the age requrements in both France and US? What kind of education is required by law?
Hah, I will support Jovana and say that the kind of "every teacher decides what to do to punish the student" rules applied before in Bulgaria too. Not anymore, now students have more rights than teachers do actually so teachers need to be very careful. I know because both my parents are teachers and they told me how arrogant kids are but they can't do a lot to stop them, teachers can't even kick you out of class if you are noisy. So, what happened with the French teacher when the girls reported that he insulted them will probably happen in my country 10 times worse for the teacher - parents will come and defend their kids, different organizations will speak up and people will easily forget that students are so disrespectful and will just blame the teacher for everything. What happens in France if a teacher insults a student that is behaving disrespectfully? Is the teacher in big trouble no matter what or the student’s behavior will be taken into account as well?
The current discussion of student's versus teacher's rights in the classroom brings up some interesting ideas. What do you think is the reason for the fact that over time different countries give more and more rights to students while taking away the teacher's authority? Do you think this is happening in France?
@Lucy
I'm pretty sure hitting children is still a fairly accepted form of punishment in many countries around the world. My aunt is an elementary teacher in China and she says that the most effective form of punishment is hitting with a ruler. Just as before, as with the supermarket example, hitting a child is often seen as a way to help them learn and grow.
I am also curious about how detentions work in France. The school I went to, we had detentions for small things like being late to school and dress code violations.
In the movies ELM and DM, I feel like presence of detentions wouldn't do much for the kids. I feel like it's there to scare the good kids but for the bad ones they probably don't care and maybe wouldn't even go.
@ Charlotte
Cela dépend des écoles, mais en général la retenue n'est pas la première punition à laquelle pense un professeur. Il peut par exemple lui donner des devoirs supplémentaires.
Si l'élève est toujours indiscipliné, on peut lui donner une retenue.
Mais comme tu le dis, je pense que ce genre de punition ne fait aucun effet aux élèves du film ELM.