Les deux films "entre les murs" et "dangerous mind" ont plusieurs points communs.
Tout d'abord, ils commencent par une très brève présentation des professeurs. On parle de leur parcours (louanne johnson qui est marine), de leur matière (professeur de français). De plus, on constate très vite que les deux professeurs ont pour but ultime d'aider leurs étudiants.Cependant, cet envie ne s'exprime pas de la même façon. Louanne préfère faire passer ses étudiants en premier quitte à enfeindre certaines lois de l'école. Tandisque que François veut apprendre à ses élèves à vivre avec les règles établies.
Alors que l'on a l'impression que tout se passe bien dans les deux films des événements viennent tout chambouler. Dans "dangerious minds" trois étudiants viennent à se bagarer parmi eux Raul et Emilio. Et là on constate une chose éxtraordinaire, louanne décide de tout prendre sur elle quitte à mentir aux parents des concernés. Mais, un événement plus grave vient encore boulverser la quietude dans ce film c'est la mort d'Emilio. Dans "entre les murs" la réalité est tout autre. Le différent qui impose le professeur à un élève vire à un reglement de compte entre élèves et admnistration.
Dans les deux scénarions s'installent la remord dû d'une part à la mort d'un étudiant dans "dangerous minds" ou au possible renvoi d'un élève dans "entre les murs". La résolution de ces événements nous emmenent petit à petit à la fin du film.
les deux histoires ont le meme contexte , elles essayent de transmettre d 'une part un message descriptif sur les differents aspect communicationnels entre les enseignants et les etudiants ét d'autre part un message pédagogique : la façon comment chacque enseignant se comporte pour passer ce message .
Dans le film "entre les murs" j'ai constaté qu'il y a une relations passif entre l'enseignant et ses étudiants , une relation qui se limite au programme imposé par le ministére d'éducation , cette relation a connu pas mal de critique de la part des éleves en demandant au prof l'interet d'apprendre des choses qui ne servent à rien dans la vie pratique, tel que l'utilisation des temps de conjugaison assez compliqué et " bizarre" selon eux , j'ai remarqué aussi qu'il n y avait pas une relation tres proche entre les deux cotés , l'enseignant essaye d'imposer son autorité en forçant les éléve à suivre un systéme sans prendre en consideration le niveau dee sa coherence avec les attentes des éléves, un systeme qui se base sur un respect plus unidirectionnel que mutuel .
Dans l'autre film , j'ai constaté que l'enseignante est plus proche de l éléve , elle vit leurs vies sociales , elle partage leurs problemes , leurs defits et leurs réves . la relation de l'enseignant ne se limite pas à une relation classique entre enseignant et éleve mais plusieurs autres facteurs entrent dedans ( la famille par exemple ).
Dans les deux cas , les enseignant ont essayé de nous montrer que chaque éléve a siffisamment de comptences pour atteindre son objectif , il ne faut qu'un peu de motivation de volanté et surtout de la stabilité psychologique.
Moi ce qui ma choqué dans "Entre les murs" est que le départ de l'élèves suite au conseil de discipline ne soit pas remis en scéne lors d'un cours (On ne parle plus de lui comme si il n'avait jamais existé). Dans "Dangerous Mind", la mort d'Emilio provoque quelque chose dans la suite du film. Vous en pensez quoi?
Moi je pense qu'il y a une très grande diffèrence entre les deux professseurs sur la façon de gerer le comportement des éléves.
Dans dangerous mind on remarque que le seul souci de louanne johnson était de trouver un moyen de capturer l'attention des éléves pour pouvoir ainsi les enseigner. Elle accordait peu d'importance sur la maniere dont ces éléves s'adressait à elle parce qu'elle savait pertinemment que ça ne servirais à rien d'essayer de les changer sans avoir au prealable gagner leur confiance. C'est ainsi qu'elle a pu gagner la confiance d'Emilio.
Cependant dans "entre les murs", le professeur de Français s'attardait trop sur la maniere dont ces éléves s'adressait à lui (vous ou tu), c'est pourquoi il n'a jamais reussi avec souleymane.
I agree that "entre les murs" is more realistic than "dangerous minds" while both tell the story of extraordinary teachers who affect the lives of the students they teach, I think that "entre les murs" takes a good look at the reality that sometimes bad things happen despite one's best efforts to help. "dangerous minds" presents a more "Hollywood" view with a teacher who refuses to play by the rules and does everything to help her students, even at a monetary cost to herself. While this is inspiring it is less realistic, especially for a single woman who isn't being paid very much to begin with.
I think that kane brings up a good point that Louanne Johnson in "Dangerous Minds" chose to ignore the social disconnect between teacher and student and realize that she might have to deal with being disrespected in order to gain the trust and respect of the students. The professor in "entre les murs" is more insistent on getting respect from the students, which costs him the ability to relate to the students
Although the endings of both films were very similar, I found the general storylines at the beginning very different. In "Dangerous Minds", the teacher had no idea what she was being thrown into; she was just expecting a full time teaching position, not a rowdy bunch of hooligans that she needed to teach how to learn. In "Entre Les Murs", the prof knew what kind of class he would probably have since he taught there for several years. He even had some of the same students as the year before. I felt like he had established methods and topics he knew worked well in the past, and he was much more prepared for his students attitudes.
In both the movies, there's a teacher who wants to do good and help their students who are "strugglers." In "Dangerous Minds", the students are underpriveleged and teeming with problems from gangs, etc. In "Entre les murs", the students are mostly immigrants or students who haven't grown up learning french. So in both classes, there's a struggle to get the kids to actually participate and want to learn. They both manage it mostly in their own ways. The interesting thing is that the french teacher goes about it by trying to attain respect and give respect - he's trying to teach the students what they need to live their lives. The english teacher goes about it by trying to attain their trust and by helping them and getting involved in their private lives. In both movies, just as it seems that things are going good, there is a tragedy.
So what I'm trying to say is that while the films had similar storylines, there was a difference in the methods of the teachers and the filmmakers. The french filmmakers focused solely on the school. They didn't show the homes of the students or the teachers or any situation outside of the school like Dangerous Minds.
An interesting thing that I felt was that both teachers, while mostly succeeding in teaching the students, didn't have very much authority. The french teacher lacked authority and was even bossed around by the lunch lady. The english teacher seemed to be at the students whim initially.
I agree with Pooja that the basic storyline is similar - two teachers who happen to be teaching at a school with underpriviliged kids. They have very unique teaching styles that differ from those of their peers.
What struck me was the difference in attitude the teacher has. The American Teacher tried to encourage kids with positive reinforcements such as giving candy, promising to take them to an amusement park, giving the boy $200 to give to pay back the drugdealer that she made him promise to give back at his graduation, and a lot of nice things that are above and beyond what is required from teachers like that to earn the love and respect of the students and to send them the message that there are people who care about them. She fights their insolence with kindness. In contrast, the French teacher gains "respect" through means such as keeping students behind in class to humiliate them and "break" them, by ridiculing back at them, calling them completely unacceptable names, and making a fuss in class by sending Soulemane to the Principal's office to be made an example of his "authority" and "power".
Also, when the idea that what they do in class could lead to effects at home, it seems like the French teachers don't really care - they give some copout reason like that "it's not our responsibility" and "we cannot take that into account". On the other hand, the American teacher realizes that how a student performs at school and their home life are intertwined. When students fight she goes to their home to offer encouragement, when a talented student is thinking of dropping out due to pregnancy, she goes to her home to try to encourage her to stay. I think this part is due to culture. One example illustrates this is the time that the American teacher brings a fancy dinner to a student who won her challenge and couldn't come to the reward dinner. While this is seen as sweet for Americans, in France it might feel more invasive and overstepping bounds.
Both stories were about teachers who cared a lot about their students and worked hard to help them. The differences in teaching styles is a result of the differences in story lines. The french class was made up of a bunch of misbehaving students. The teacher helped them by teaching them proper behavior that they need to get along in life. He demanded respect by enforcing strict rules and formalities.
The American students seemed to have more serious problems at home and issues of defiance. The teacher had to win their trust by bringing herself down to their level by not enforcing strict rules or formalities. For example, students were sitting on desks during class and she was interested in their lives outside of school.
I think that probably the most significant difference was that in Dangerous Minds the teacher does not have the support from the school, other teachers or head-masters. She knows that she couldn't use this as her weapon against their disrespect. She has to rely on herself and that is why she has to come up with different ideas to attract their attention without warning them that they will be expelled or bringing them to the head-master. She uses their own future an life for motivation which I think is better in a sense because people a willing to only agree completely to obey when it comes to their own life and well-being.
About the Hollywood style
It is obvious that there are some unrealistic things in both movies, maybe more in Dangerous minds although it was not completely happy-ending since one of the main characters died. Also, the old woman who didn't want to let her grandchildren go to school was not convinced until the end of the movie so still something that didn't end that well.
General comments
In general, I think both stories were intriguing in a sense but I liked Dangerous minds more since it was more engaging, maybe partly because it was not that real and I am probably not interested in real-life stories that much after 12 years in high school. After all, that is why people like us watch American movies, because a lot of them are far from reality (not that one in particular) and make us look from another angle at what is happening around.
I think Dangerous Minds was overly Hollywoodized. Like Yoana said, it isn't that real and American movies are generally geared more towards entertainment than actual experiences. I don't know the actual story behind "My Posse Don't Do Homework" but I think the ending in particular was very unrealistic and had to end happily because that's just how things are done. In "Entre le Murs" by the end of the movie he was still trying to get through to either the students or administration and didn't sail as easily by in turning things around or helping them like LouAnne. I think the story line of Entre le Murs showed more about how the teachers and administration felt about things (like the rant of the teacher who wanted to quit because he thought the students didn't care and weren't respectful) without showing you much else about the students while "Dangerous Minds" appealed more to making the viewer feel something and was more emotional instead of being matter of factly.
When I watched these two films, I was surprised at the different ways students addressed the teachers. In "Entre les murs" the students are disrespectful but not to the point where they get up from their seats. These students tend to talk back to the teacher, to argue, and rebel in a relatively passive manner. This was interesting because it shows how structured French society is. Even the most disrespectful person shows some respect to their teachers. In "Dangerous Minds" the students were completely out of line. Not only did they talk when the teacher was talking, they did not sit in their seats. They threw things around. They did not listen at all. The difference in the upbringing of children in these two countries can be seen quite clearly in these scenes, and I do not think this aspect has been dramatized.
On the same note, I was also surprised by how much respect the teachers have for the students, maybe not because it was their choice, but because it was tradition that students sit in on board meetings. In "Dangerous Minds", every decision went through the board, and the students had no say in the outcome. In "Entre les Murs", the students have representatives that sit in on faculty meetings. Is this always the case, in every school? In the US, we have student representatives and class councils but I'm not sure if they sit in on meetings en par with the other teachers and faculty.
Sorry... I posted my previous response under the wrong forum topic...
In terms of the events and plot of the stories, I think the films were definitely targeting different audiences.
Americans enjoy seeing individuals overcome adversity and triumph. That is why in most Hollywood endings, the protagonist "wins" and succeeds. This movie was definitely idealized and not very likely in the real world, but the American mentality is "well, if you try hard, it could happen". I also think Ms. Johnson is probably overstepping privacy boundaries between teacher and student when she goes to visit the families. I think this, in real like, would be highly inappropriate. Furthermore, the school board is unreasonably harsh when dealing with these children, but it is still not likely that a teacher would directly defy laws set by the authorities, particularly if he or she wants to keep his or her job. This movie was simply an entertaining story.
"Entre les Murs" is more of a slice of every day life. The characters and scenarios are very realistic. In this film, the main purpose is not to entertain and make the audience feel happy. It is meant to delve deeper into the emotions of the characters: the frustrations, the triumphs, the failures. It shows teachers are human beings, capable of making mistakes when dealing with their students, and it shows when students are wise beyond their years.
I agree that Dangerous Minds has a clear Hollywood style and ending. Unlike, Entre les murs which had a documentary feel to it, Dangerous Minds was spun like a story. The viewer is given scenes to explain students' troubles and it's clear that the cast was acting out the story. I also agree that Entre les murs did not try to make the audience feel happier. It was much more clinical in that all you see is what happens at school. There is no attempt to show what type of home life or life outside of school those kids have. The viewer only sees the emotions, triumphs, and failures of the characters as they would be seen at schoo, making the title very appropriate, but life is not limited to school. Dangerous Minds tries to show how those same frustrations and successes might extend outside the walls of a school.
However, I disagree that the events in Dangerous Minds were unlikely or that she overstepped her boundaries. I grew up not far from where this film was focused and went to school with similar students. Not many teachers are brave enough to go into the neighborhoods and visit parents, but it does happen and it usually helps. As with any action, it could also easily backfire and make the students feel like the teachers went over them to force them to behave. A great many of the teachers utilize similar methods to gain students' cooperation: the candy bars, field trips, certificates and honors, competitions. I once had a teacher who had monthly contests for the best book reports where the reward was that she would take the winners out to ice cream. When I was transferred to a better school district, I ended up in a school in a wealthy neighborhood where Ms. Johnson's behavior would have been encouraged. That school operated under the idea that a teacher's efficacy is limited only by their creativity and budget. Again, I wouldn't say this was common, but it's not hard to find a handful of teachers like Ms. Johnson in every school. Even the fact that she is supposed to be an ex-Marine isn't unlikely. People with backgrounds like that are almost always placed in the tough schools. The way the school board dealt with Callie and Emilio may be unreasonably harsh, but it is the way most of these school boards operate, especially in "at-risk" neighborhoods. To say that this movie was "simply an entertaining story" just shows that this movie was ineffective in conveying a sense of reality to what is, in my opinion, a very real story.
The professor in "Dangerous Minds" was an extremely inexperienced professor, teaching without her certification. This gave the sense that this job was so undesirable. Rather, the professor in "Entre les murs" had teaching experience before. Throughout the movie, it hinted at how he had troubled students before - with the comments about how many referrals he had given in the past.
The students
The students in the both of the "classrooms" were similar in the sense that they were bad students, but the students' attitudes were very different. The students in "Dangerous Minds" had this sense that they just did not care. They were bus from a town far away, went to school everyday, but had no interest in doing any work. They just did not see the value in it. They would argue with the professor - often not on the materials being taught - but would even get up from their chairs. In "Entre les murs" the students were much more partcipative in class, rather they would often fight back with the teacher, but in a much more passive manner. The students would challenge what the professor said.
The way that professor resolves problem
The professor in "Dangerous Minds" took a much more personal approach - personally going to students homes. This professor also gave a lot of positive reinforcements such as giving out candy and taking them to amusement parks. It struck me how giving the professor was - taking money from her own salary to do this. The professor in "Entre les murs" took more traditional routes by meeting parents in parent-teacher conferences.
@ Benji: Why do we not hear about Souleymane after he leaves -- why is it not discussed in class or provoke events in the rest of the film?
I think this was one of the most interesting aspects of this story. I think that it gives the impression that these bad things are not life-changing events (as the dramatic death of Emilio was in Dangerous Minds). Moreover, this suggests that these bad things happen all the time, and I think it's a more powerful message.
Heroism
In Dangerous Minds, I think the events make the teacher seem like a hero. She is given a teaching job and thrown into a difficult classroom alone, and must fight the system (the administrators, the curriculum) to teach her students. The events are dramatic, she tries to save a student and he dies, and finally she almost quits but is convinced by the students to stay.
In Entre Les Murs, the events actually make the teacher seem less like a hero at the end of the film. He works together with the other teachers (not alone, as in Dangerous Minds). While there is also a tragedy with one student (Souleymane being expelled), he actually plays a part in making it happen by insulting the girls. The situation is more complicated, and more realistic.
Realism and Los Angeles (@Ana)
Like Ana, I went to high school in the same general area as the film, with some similar students (though my classes were much more mixed: well-behaved and poorly-behaved students together). While my story is very different from that of the students in the film, it's hard to avoid comparing the film to my own experience. Unlike Ana, I thought the film was exaggerated, in order to make a more dramatic story. That's fine, it's the hollywood style, but I think the movie was less powerful as a result. My high school had one teacher who may be similar to Ms. Johnson, since he was popular and respected by everyone. He required his students to work hard, but he also helped them both in and out of the classroom. But his help was more often given within the context of school: convincing students to apply to college, for example, or providing leadership and a role model when their families did not provide this. Dangerous Minds, however, focused on more dramatic help given by Ms. Johnson, such as sheltering a student from a murderer. The exaggeration made an entertaining story, but the happy ending especially was unrealistic -- the problems continue at schools like this.
I noticed in particular that Dangerous Minds followed a very typical American storyline of someone in an uncomfortable and difficult situation succeeding against all odds, while Entre les Murs focused on the general difficulties and ongoing struggle of being a teacher when the students don't want to be taught. I don't think that everything that occurred in Dangerous Minds was unrealistic or impossible, but it was definitely skewed towards the kind of story that audiences in the United States expect to see.
I first watched "Dangerous Minds" and after seeing kids who behaved like that, students in "Entre les Murs" seemed like little kittens. Two movies also represent two different ages of students. While "Entre les Murs" talks about students who are 13-14 years old, the American movie talks about older teenagers. The difference between their behavours is certainly due to the difference between cultures, but I think that difference between their age also makes a difference. Older students are getting bigger, older, more confident, more themselves, and they will more easily get up in the middle of the class, ignore the professor completely, etc. These older students also had longer time growing up in bad neighbourhood, seen more of the bad stuff, and therefore are much harder to handle.
I don't think that the way student in "Entre les murs" respond to professor should be considered passive. Quite the contrary. Sure, they are less physical, but they stand up and argue their opinions more that the students in "Dangerous minds". They argue even when there is no real meaning to it, all the time and they use teachers own weapen, the words, to fight against him. I guess we are talking about two different kinds of rebellion.
When it comes to teachers, in the American movie, as it is case very often, the main character is the hero, the saviour, their "light". She gets them in the right way, she changes them. She changes who they are, how they behave and how they think. She focuses more on getting them to want to learn, desire to accomplish something on their own, which I think is pretty American and I say this in all good ways. On the other hand, the French professor manages to teach them more material, but he doesn't actually changes their behaviour and the way they are. On the contrary, with his disrespect towards the student, he causes worse response in my opinion.
The way I could justify this is looking at the length of their experience. Every time anybody start working in a new place, esepcially in the places like this one, they are full of enthusiasm, have more energy, and more hope that they can change things. They invest more, like LouAnne. On the other hand, Francois has worked there for a while and maybe he lost the hope of changing the students, so he just spends time arguing with them and humiliating them. Still, I like his attitude, I would totaly want him as a friend. :D
Mr. Marin had a head start on Louanne: Apparently he knew the students from the previous year, a fact that we learned through his dealings with the student who didn't want to read the excerpt from Anne Frank's Diary. The teachers in ELM also had compared notes about their kids in their class, something Louanne definitely didn't have.
Louanne had no idea who she was teaching until she stepped into the classroom; a room full of rowdy students who had completely disrespect for her.
Important Events
The "troublemakers" were Souleman and Emilio in ELM and DM, respectively. Souleman was expelled by committee, while Emilio was murdered on the streets. There were more important milestones in DM - Louanne visiting Raul, Emilio, and Gusmaro's parents after the big fight, the dinner with her students, and being able to relate poetry to her student's lives. In ELM, the only important events were the part where he couldn't get his student to read an excerpt from the book, and the incident involving Souleman.
Ending
I thought the ending for ELM was abrupt - After the incident with Souleman the filmmakers basically showed a montage of a better-behaved class and, possibly, the effects of not having a disruptive student in the class. The assumption was that Mr. Marin will be back for another year.
DM had a Hollywood ending---even after Emilio died, the kids realized just how valuable their teacher was and begged their hero to stay, which she did.
Le début est à peu pret le même pour les deux film, ce qui changé c'est comment les professeur vous remédier aux problèmes qui se posent à eux. Ceci va influer sur la suite du film.
Dans Dangerous Mind, le professeur se met tout de suite au niveau des élèves pour résoudre le problème de communication qu'elle a avec eux. On ne voit jamais le point de vue de l'administration.
Dans Entre les murs, le professeur choisit de repousser le problème en le donnant au directeur de l'école qui va simplement appliquer le réglement intérieur de l'école. Il y a une barrière entre le proffeur et ses élève qui est assimilé, pour lui, au respect que doivent avoir ses élèves envers lui. Il ne veut pas rentrer en contact avec ses élèves tout simplement parce qu'il ne veut pas devenir leur ami.
Au final, le professuer dans Dangerous Minds arrive à ses fin et nous avons plus ou moins un fin heureuse. Dans Entre les murs, on a pas vraimant la vision finale du professeur de français. On ne sait pas s'il est attristé du fait que l'élève se soit fait viré de l'école. On a tout simplement pas cette vision parce que pour nous aussi on a pas a ressentir ce que pense le professeur. I la fait un choix et on doit le respecter. de ce point de vu, il y a l'aspect de la solitude que cela entraine, le professuer face à sa classe de 30 élèves, qui ne doit penser que par lui même et prendre des décisions seules, les décisions qu"il pense juste pour le bien être de sa classe.
Après avoir suivi les deux films il m'a semblé evident qu'ils n'avaient pas les mêmes objectifs. Pendant que l'un, ELM, essaiyait de refleter la réalité, l'autre, DM, prenait plutôt une dimension hollywoodienne des films.
Au debut, on comprend bien que les deux films exposent le problème de dialogue entre un professeur et sa classe. Mais DM pousse plus loin le problème dans la mesure où Louane n'avait pas été prevenue à l'avance et que les élèves lui ont totalement manqué de respect.
Dans le corps des films, ELM n'a pas arrêté de nous montrer ce qui se passe dans la vraie vie (en France) où le professeur tient à maintenir un certain registre (VOUS et non TU) entre lui et ses élèves. Alors que DM montre plutot ce qui se passerait à l'idéal: le prof se met au niveau de ses élèves pour faire passer le courant (l'habillement de Louane au deuxième cours), le prof s'implique dans la vie des élèves.
Sur la fin, ELM reste fidèle à sa dimension réalitiste: Souleyman est chassé et François n'a jamais pu maîtriser sa classe. Alors que DM aurait eu une fin parfaite s'il n'y avait pas eu la mort d'Emilio car Louane a su gagner la confiance de ses élèves.
En conclusion, il faut dire que pendant que ELM se contentait de relater la réalité, DM quant à lui, dans un atmosphère dramatique, essaiyait de donner aux profs quelques astuces pour maîtriser une classes d'élèves revoltés.
I agree with Lissy that maybe being so involved in students' lives (as Louane was) is not very realistic. However, I wonder, do you think that a teacher should only be academically involved in his/her students' lives? Don't you think that teachers sometimes can and should give general advice about something that they have gone through before and know more about? I mean, after all teachers are people as well, they can be helpful outside school as well...I wonder because I know in some societies talking to teachers about stuff outside school is not very well accepted :)
To me, it seems as though the storylines progress in opposite ways.
At the start of dangerous minds, the teacher has no relationship with the students. In order to develop one, she really gives the students some freedom and tries to make the experience fun. She seems to really respect the students. By the end, the students are learning and enjoying it.
In the case of Entre les Murs, the students and teacher seem to already be aquainted. Throughout the course of the film, the teacher disrespects the students repeatedly and has no faith in their abilities. Ultimately, things are very damaged. To be fair, this film is far more realistic.
Both films tries to capture the toughness of the educational system within these days. Both films explore the difficulties both students and teachers find in the educational process.
The problems of modern education behind the film
Regardless the problems French and American education might have, the process of incorpore knowledge as is known today is a medieval institution, borned with the first "Universitas", places where the students went to learn how things worked, expand their own Universe and receive the "light" of knowledge. It is probably that this old institution might need some profound revision. It has been working the same way for more than 1500 years. How can we motivate people to recieve the knowledge necessary to transform this world in a better one?
The story
Even both stories might appear similiar, they reflect the problems the French and American society faces nowadays with the students. The producers choose to set the stories reflecting the most marginal students. In less than 2 hours of film this is a good way to stress the main points about education. The underlying problem in both films seem to be the lack of motivation in the students to learn, even though is well know how important is education in their lives. In my opinion, "Entre les murs" reflects a more real story than "Dangerous minds" but both gives us a good approximation of what problems modern societies are facing in their Educational Systems.
The end
"Dangerous minds" has a happy hollywood ending. "Entre les murs" make us think about the future of the main characters of the movie. However, In my opinion, the richiest part of both movies is the way LouAnne and M. Marin interacts with their students and how they tackle the different problems.
I agree with Jovana that the differences in the storyline have also to do with their age differences. In "Entre les murs" the students were in middle school, and need to have more structure in classes to learn the basics of the french language, etc. In "Dangerous Minds", the structure of class still needs to be there, but what was more important was showing the students that they had the potential to learn and do well in school, so they would continue and graduate.
I feel like at the end of Entre les Murs, part of the somber ending was because what transpired is partly because of what the teacher did and said to his students. He made a mistake and there are consequences. Sometimes, as often in real life situations, they are irreparable.
In Dangerous Minds, the teacher made many mistakes during her teaching but each time, things turned out in her favor. She managed to gain the trust of her students through her mistakes and in the end she succeeded.
It seems that making mistakes is a big deal in France. Do people usually live life trying not to make mistakes or go through life knowing that one will make mistakes and planning to make the best out of the mistake?
There is also another movie called Stand and Deliver that I think would have also been slightly closer to ELM. DM was a typical "teacher movie." It is one similar to a typical romantic comedy in the US. You already know how it begins and how its going to end but you just watch to see what happens in the middle. I think the mundaneness although, unpredicatability of ELM was what made it interesting. The incomplete ending says to me that the French (or at least just the producers of the film) realize that there are things wrong with the system and that helping students goes beyond the classroom. I think one thing DM said about the teaching system was the lack of compassion that there is for teachers. Here many are underpaid and overworked. Does France have strict rules for hiring teachers or are some allowed to "slip through the cracks" like Louanne did simply because someone was needed?
In the US, there is a phrase we use for many films and stories: suepension of disbelief. The film Dangerous Minds requires the audience to suspend their disbelief throughout the entire film, especially when circumstances seem to work out so well for the teacher. She seemed to earn the trust of her students very quickly. She was not penalized by the board of education for her breaching of certain rules. This is what some people would simplly label as "Hollywood" and then go on with their lives. This might be because Americans often enjoy movies for the sheer inplausibility of the plot. Maybe they feel happier because the character in the film was able to succeed in whatever way she did in the film.
Do the French prefer movies that are more realistic? Is there a limit to suspending one's belief beyond which the film is just no longer enjoyable?
I think in international countries in general movies can never be (well, maybe not never but almost) like Hollywood ones even though some people try hard. In Bulgaria, they don't go even close, maybe people have more experience in the USA. I have seen a lot of very realistic movies in my country, almost like documentaries and people don't enjoy them as much. I guess our directors can't make up (in the good way) such interesting events as directors here and of course there is the huge factor that is the movie industry is sooo poor, they can't afford expensive screening and actors such as those in Hollywood. I don't think DM is very expensive movie though but still... I wonder what the difference is for the budgets of the two movies - ELM and DM. I was only able to find the gross which is more than 50 times bigger for DM. Do you think the money put in the screening of the movie affects the way the story is told- whether it is more realistic or not?
I think money plays a very important role. Just look at the French movie. It was shot in one building, pretty convinient. On the other hand, DM had so many different scenes and locations:school, her home, supermarket, Raul's house, rollercoster, the restaurant... with all the supporting actors, all the statists in the background... and this movie was probably not even quarter of the price of other hollywood movies since it doesn't have any special effects. I wish I knew what the exact numbers for both movies are...
While I agree with everything that has been said about budget, hollywood, production value, etc. it is also important to keep in mind that the directors of the films may have just been aiming for two different end goals. Because Entre les murs was shot in the way of a documentary, it evokes emotions and thoughts that Dangerous Minds cannot. The "feel" of the two movies are very different. I think it is just something important to recognize, although I have no idea what the visions of each director was or if they were constrained by resources.
I agree with Danielle. I think the sort of documentary type filming in ELM gives a very different feel from DM. However, things may feel even different in The Class since it is dubbed. I'm not sure if we can completely tell the intended tone.
Similarly, in DM there is a bunch of very silly humor. This is not the case of ELM. It seems to be a much more serious film even though the two are discussing the same thing.
Do french films have this classic bad/silly american comedy? Is this an american culture thing?
I really liked that Ana could share her own experiences in this conversation. I feel that the evidence gave her story more credibility.
@ the other person from a similar neighborhood but disagrees with Ana
I feel that even the existance of one teacher gives the story some credibility right? the premise of the movie is that this teacher, like the teacher you mention, is special. And even though most teachers don't go out of their way for students, there can be an exception who goes above and beyond.
I agree with Danielle. Entre les Murs is a documentary and thus the setting is more ordinary than if the movie has explosions and car crashes. However, the general setting for Dangerous Minds is also quite simple. The only difference I see is that there is more variety in Dangerous Minds (the restaurant, amusement park, school, students' homes). In Entre les Murs, the setting is limited strictly to that one school, with its playground and classrooms and stairways. That might account for the difference in money spent. Also, it is possible that publicity is a bigger thing in the US. Posters, TV trailers, etc.
Are there many movie trailers in France? Also, how often do the French go to a theater and watch a movie? Those numbers may further explain why Dangerous Minds cost more to make.
Going of of Danielle's comment, the film style of both movies is very different. The styles of the directors envokes emotions that enhance the feelings they want us to have. For example, the scenes in the classroom (where we are supposed to feel hopeful) are warmly lit in yellows and oranges. On the other hand, the lighting in Entre les Murs brings out the fluorescent lighting of real classrooms. The colors are dark and blue. Entre les Murs is supposed to feel like a real story. Dangerous Minds is more idealized.
This can also be seen in the music or lack thereof. (Dangerous Minds has an upbeat 80's soudtrack where as Entre les Murs is like real life, sadly without a soundtrack).
I thought the stll shots of the empty classroom in between days in Entre les Murs were very powerful.
Yes, I agree with what has been said after my last comment. I'm not saying it is always better if the movie is very expensive production. Actually, there are a lot of examples of movies that are low-budget and still very deep and worth seeing. I think since they have no cool effects and flashing lights, these movies rely only on the story and so the story needs to be good enough so that people still go and watch them.
I wonder how many new movies were produced in France recently and how many of them are popular worldwide? Was ELM popular in the USA at all?
Discussion
Compare how the story unfolds, important events, the ending. / Comparez la façon dont l'histoire se déroule, les événements importants, la fin.
Les deux films "entre les murs" et "dangerous mind" ont plusieurs points communs.
Tout d'abord, ils commencent par une très brève présentation des professeurs. On parle de leur parcours (louanne johnson qui est marine), de leur matière (professeur de français). De plus, on constate très vite que les deux professeurs ont pour but ultime d'aider leurs étudiants.Cependant, cet envie ne s'exprime pas de la même façon. Louanne préfère faire passer ses étudiants en premier quitte à enfeindre certaines lois de l'école. Tandisque que François veut apprendre à ses élèves à vivre avec les règles établies.
Alors que l'on a l'impression que tout se passe bien dans les deux films des événements viennent tout chambouler. Dans "dangerious minds" trois étudiants viennent à se bagarer parmi eux Raul et Emilio. Et là on constate une chose éxtraordinaire, louanne décide de tout prendre sur elle quitte à mentir aux parents des concernés. Mais, un événement plus grave vient encore boulverser la quietude dans ce film c'est la mort d'Emilio. Dans "entre les murs" la réalité est tout autre. Le différent qui impose le professeur à un élève vire à un reglement de compte entre élèves et admnistration.
Dans les deux scénarions s'installent la remord dû d'une part à la mort d'un étudiant dans "dangerous minds" ou au possible renvoi d'un élève dans "entre les murs". La résolution de ces événements nous emmenent petit à petit à la fin du film.
les deux histoires ont le meme contexte , elles essayent de transmettre d 'une part un message descriptif sur les differents aspect communicationnels entre les enseignants et les etudiants ét d'autre part un message pédagogique : la façon comment chacque enseignant se comporte pour passer ce message .
Dans le film "entre les murs" j'ai constaté qu'il y a une relations passif entre l'enseignant et ses étudiants , une relation qui se limite au programme imposé par le ministére d'éducation , cette relation a connu pas mal de critique de la part des éleves en demandant au prof l'interet d'apprendre des choses qui ne servent à rien dans la vie pratique, tel que l'utilisation des temps de conjugaison assez compliqué et " bizarre" selon eux , j'ai remarqué aussi qu'il n y avait pas une relation tres proche entre les deux cotés , l'enseignant essaye d'imposer son autorité en forçant les éléve à suivre un systéme sans prendre en consideration le niveau dee sa coherence avec les attentes des éléves, un systeme qui se base sur un respect plus unidirectionnel que mutuel .
Dans l'autre film , j'ai constaté que l'enseignante est plus proche de l éléve , elle vit leurs vies sociales , elle partage leurs problemes , leurs defits et leurs réves . la relation de l'enseignant ne se limite pas à une relation classique entre enseignant et éleve mais plusieurs autres facteurs entrent dedans ( la famille par exemple ).
Dans les deux cas , les enseignant ont essayé de nous montrer que chaque éléve a siffisamment de comptences pour atteindre son objectif , il ne faut qu'un peu de motivation de volanté et surtout de la stabilité psychologique.
The atlas lion
Moi ce qui ma choqué dans "Entre les murs" est que le départ de l'élèves suite au conseil de discipline ne soit pas remis en scéne lors d'un cours (On ne parle plus de lui comme si il n'avait jamais existé). Dans "Dangerous Mind", la mort d'Emilio provoque quelque chose dans la suite du film. Vous en pensez quoi?
Bonjour,
Moi je pense qu'il y a une très grande diffèrence entre les deux professseurs sur la façon de gerer le comportement des éléves.
Dans dangerous mind on remarque que le seul souci de louanne johnson était de trouver un moyen de capturer l'attention des éléves pour pouvoir ainsi les enseigner. Elle accordait peu d'importance sur la maniere dont ces éléves s'adressait à elle parce qu'elle savait pertinemment que ça ne servirais à rien d'essayer de les changer sans avoir au prealable gagner leur confiance. C'est ainsi qu'elle a pu gagner la confiance d'Emilio.
Cependant dans "entre les murs", le professeur de Français s'attardait trop sur la maniere dont ces éléves s'adressait à lui (vous ou tu), c'est pourquoi il n'a jamais reussi avec souleymane.
I agree that "entre les murs" is more realistic than "dangerous minds" while both tell the story of extraordinary teachers who affect the lives of the students they teach, I think that "entre les murs" takes a good look at the reality that sometimes bad things happen despite one's best efforts to help. "dangerous minds" presents a more "Hollywood" view with a teacher who refuses to play by the rules and does everything to help her students, even at a monetary cost to herself. While this is inspiring it is less realistic, especially for a single woman who isn't being paid very much to begin with.
I think that kane brings up a good point that Louanne Johnson in "Dangerous Minds" chose to ignore the social disconnect between teacher and student and realize that she might have to deal with being disrespected in order to gain the trust and respect of the students. The professor in "entre les murs" is more insistent on getting respect from the students, which costs him the ability to relate to the students
Although the endings of both films were very similar, I found the general storylines at the beginning very different. In "Dangerous Minds", the teacher had no idea what she was being thrown into; she was just expecting a full time teaching position, not a rowdy bunch of hooligans that she needed to teach how to learn. In "Entre Les Murs", the prof knew what kind of class he would probably have since he taught there for several years. He even had some of the same students as the year before. I felt like he had established methods and topics he knew worked well in the past, and he was much more prepared for his students attitudes.
In both the movies, there's a teacher who wants to do good and help their students who are "strugglers." In "Dangerous Minds", the students are underpriveleged and teeming with problems from gangs, etc. In "Entre les murs", the students are mostly immigrants or students who haven't grown up learning french. So in both classes, there's a struggle to get the kids to actually participate and want to learn. They both manage it mostly in their own ways. The interesting thing is that the french teacher goes about it by trying to attain respect and give respect - he's trying to teach the students what they need to live their lives. The english teacher goes about it by trying to attain their trust and by helping them and getting involved in their private lives. In both movies, just as it seems that things are going good, there is a tragedy.
So what I'm trying to say is that while the films had similar storylines, there was a difference in the methods of the teachers and the filmmakers. The french filmmakers focused solely on the school. They didn't show the homes of the students or the teachers or any situation outside of the school like Dangerous Minds.
An interesting thing that I felt was that both teachers, while mostly succeeding in teaching the students, didn't have very much authority. The french teacher lacked authority and was even bossed around by the lunch lady. The english teacher seemed to be at the students whim initially.
I agree with Pooja that the basic storyline is similar - two teachers who happen to be teaching at a school with underpriviliged kids. They have very unique teaching styles that differ from those of their peers.
What struck me was the difference in attitude the teacher has. The American Teacher tried to encourage kids with positive reinforcements such as giving candy, promising to take them to an amusement park, giving the boy $200 to give to pay back the drugdealer that she made him promise to give back at his graduation, and a lot of nice things that are above and beyond what is required from teachers like that to earn the love and respect of the students and to send them the message that there are people who care about them. She fights their insolence with kindness. In contrast, the French teacher gains "respect" through means such as keeping students behind in class to humiliate them and "break" them, by ridiculing back at them, calling them completely unacceptable names, and making a fuss in class by sending Soulemane to the Principal's office to be made an example of his "authority" and "power".
Also, when the idea that what they do in class could lead to effects at home, it seems like the French teachers don't really care - they give some copout reason like that "it's not our responsibility" and "we cannot take that into account". On the other hand, the American teacher realizes that how a student performs at school and their home life are intertwined. When students fight she goes to their home to offer encouragement, when a talented student is thinking of dropping out due to pregnancy, she goes to her home to try to encourage her to stay. I think this part is due to culture. One example illustrates this is the time that the American teacher brings a fancy dinner to a student who won her challenge and couldn't come to the reward dinner. While this is seen as sweet for Americans, in France it might feel more invasive and overstepping bounds.
Both stories were about teachers who cared a lot about their students and worked hard to help them. The differences in teaching styles is a result of the differences in story lines. The french class was made up of a bunch of misbehaving students. The teacher helped them by teaching them proper behavior that they need to get along in life. He demanded respect by enforcing strict rules and formalities.
The American students seemed to have more serious problems at home and issues of defiance. The teacher had to win their trust by bringing herself down to their level by not enforcing strict rules or formalities. For example, students were sitting on desks during class and she was interested in their lives outside of school.
Teachers' strategies
I think that probably the most significant difference was that in Dangerous Minds the teacher does not have the support from the school, other teachers or head-masters. She knows that she couldn't use this as her weapon against their disrespect. She has to rely on herself and that is why she has to come up with different ideas to attract their attention without warning them that they will be expelled or bringing them to the head-master. She uses their own future an life for motivation which I think is better in a sense because people a willing to only agree completely to obey when it comes to their own life and well-being.
About the Hollywood style
It is obvious that there are some unrealistic things in both movies, maybe more in Dangerous minds although it was not completely happy-ending since one of the main characters died. Also, the old woman who didn't want to let her grandchildren go to school was not convinced until the end of the movie so still something that didn't end that well.
General comments
In general, I think both stories were intriguing in a sense but I liked Dangerous minds more since it was more engaging, maybe partly because it was not that real and I am probably not interested in real-life stories that much after 12 years in high school. After all, that is why people like us watch American movies, because a lot of them are far from reality (not that one in particular) and make us look from another angle at what is happening around.
I think Dangerous Minds was overly Hollywoodized. Like Yoana said, it isn't that real and American movies are generally geared more towards entertainment than actual experiences. I don't know the actual story behind "My Posse Don't Do Homework" but I think the ending in particular was very unrealistic and had to end happily because that's just how things are done. In "Entre le Murs" by the end of the movie he was still trying to get through to either the students or administration and didn't sail as easily by in turning things around or helping them like LouAnne. I think the story line of Entre le Murs showed more about how the teachers and administration felt about things (like the rant of the teacher who wanted to quit because he thought the students didn't care and weren't respectful) without showing you much else about the students while "Dangerous Minds" appealed more to making the viewer feel something and was more emotional instead of being matter of factly.
When I watched these two films, I was surprised at the different ways students addressed the teachers. In "Entre les murs" the students are disrespectful but not to the point where they get up from their seats. These students tend to talk back to the teacher, to argue, and rebel in a relatively passive manner. This was interesting because it shows how structured French society is. Even the most disrespectful person shows some respect to their teachers. In "Dangerous Minds" the students were completely out of line. Not only did they talk when the teacher was talking, they did not sit in their seats. They threw things around. They did not listen at all. The difference in the upbringing of children in these two countries can be seen quite clearly in these scenes, and I do not think this aspect has been dramatized.
On the same note, I was also surprised by how much respect the teachers have for the students, maybe not because it was their choice, but because it was tradition that students sit in on board meetings. In "Dangerous Minds", every decision went through the board, and the students had no say in the outcome. In "Entre les Murs", the students have representatives that sit in on faculty meetings. Is this always the case, in every school? In the US, we have student representatives and class councils but I'm not sure if they sit in on meetings en par with the other teachers and faculty.
Sorry... I posted my previous response under the wrong forum topic...
In terms of the events and plot of the stories, I think the films were definitely targeting different audiences.
Americans enjoy seeing individuals overcome adversity and triumph. That is why in most Hollywood endings, the protagonist "wins" and succeeds. This movie was definitely idealized and not very likely in the real world, but the American mentality is "well, if you try hard, it could happen". I also think Ms. Johnson is probably overstepping privacy boundaries between teacher and student when she goes to visit the families. I think this, in real like, would be highly inappropriate. Furthermore, the school board is unreasonably harsh when dealing with these children, but it is still not likely that a teacher would directly defy laws set by the authorities, particularly if he or she wants to keep his or her job. This movie was simply an entertaining story.
"Entre les Murs" is more of a slice of every day life. The characters and scenarios are very realistic. In this film, the main purpose is not to entertain and make the audience feel happy. It is meant to delve deeper into the emotions of the characters: the frustrations, the triumphs, the failures. It shows teachers are human beings, capable of making mistakes when dealing with their students, and it shows when students are wise beyond their years.
I agree that Dangerous Minds has a clear Hollywood style and ending. Unlike, Entre les murs which had a documentary feel to it, Dangerous Minds was spun like a story. The viewer is given scenes to explain students' troubles and it's clear that the cast was acting out the story. I also agree that Entre les murs did not try to make the audience feel happier. It was much more clinical in that all you see is what happens at school. There is no attempt to show what type of home life or life outside of school those kids have. The viewer only sees the emotions, triumphs, and failures of the characters as they would be seen at schoo, making the title very appropriate, but life is not limited to school. Dangerous Minds tries to show how those same frustrations and successes might extend outside the walls of a school.
However, I disagree that the events in Dangerous Minds were unlikely or that she overstepped her boundaries. I grew up not far from where this film was focused and went to school with similar students. Not many teachers are brave enough to go into the neighborhoods and visit parents, but it does happen and it usually helps. As with any action, it could also easily backfire and make the students feel like the teachers went over them to force them to behave. A great many of the teachers utilize similar methods to gain students' cooperation: the candy bars, field trips, certificates and honors, competitions. I once had a teacher who had monthly contests for the best book reports where the reward was that she would take the winners out to ice cream. When I was transferred to a better school district, I ended up in a school in a wealthy neighborhood where Ms. Johnson's behavior would have been encouraged. That school operated under the idea that a teacher's efficacy is limited only by their creativity and budget. Again, I wouldn't say this was common, but it's not hard to find a handful of teachers like Ms. Johnson in every school. Even the fact that she is supposed to be an ex-Marine isn't unlikely. People with backgrounds like that are almost always placed in the tough schools. The way the school board dealt with Callie and Emilio may be unreasonably harsh, but it is the way most of these school boards operate, especially in "at-risk" neighborhoods. To say that this movie was "simply an entertaining story" just shows that this movie was ineffective in conveying a sense of reality to what is, in my opinion, a very real story.
The professor
The professor in "Dangerous Minds" was an extremely inexperienced professor, teaching without her certification. This gave the sense that this job was so undesirable. Rather, the professor in "Entre les murs" had teaching experience before. Throughout the movie, it hinted at how he had troubled students before - with the comments about how many referrals he had given in the past.
The students
The students in the both of the "classrooms" were similar in the sense that they were bad students, but the students' attitudes were very different. The students in "Dangerous Minds" had this sense that they just did not care. They were bus from a town far away, went to school everyday, but had no interest in doing any work. They just did not see the value in it. They would argue with the professor - often not on the materials being taught - but would even get up from their chairs. In "Entre les murs" the students were much more partcipative in class, rather they would often fight back with the teacher, but in a much more passive manner. The students would challenge what the professor said.
The way that professor resolves problem
The professor in "Dangerous Minds" took a much more personal approach - personally going to students homes. This professor also gave a lot of positive reinforcements such as giving out candy and taking them to amusement parks. It struck me how giving the professor was - taking money from her own salary to do this. The professor in "Entre les murs" took more traditional routes by meeting parents in parent-teacher conferences.
@ Benji: Why do we not hear about Souleymane after he leaves -- why is it not discussed in class or provoke events in the rest of the film?
I think this was one of the most interesting aspects of this story. I think that it gives the impression that these bad things are not life-changing events (as the dramatic death of Emilio was in Dangerous Minds). Moreover, this suggests that these bad things happen all the time, and I think it's a more powerful message.
Heroism
In Dangerous Minds, I think the events make the teacher seem like a hero. She is given a teaching job and thrown into a difficult classroom alone, and must fight the system (the administrators, the curriculum) to teach her students. The events are dramatic, she tries to save a student and he dies, and finally she almost quits but is convinced by the students to stay.
In Entre Les Murs, the events actually make the teacher seem less like a hero at the end of the film. He works together with the other teachers (not alone, as in Dangerous Minds). While there is also a tragedy with one student (Souleymane being expelled), he actually plays a part in making it happen by insulting the girls. The situation is more complicated, and more realistic.
Realism and Los Angeles (@Ana)
Like Ana, I went to high school in the same general area as the film, with some similar students (though my classes were much more mixed: well-behaved and poorly-behaved students together). While my story is very different from that of the students in the film, it's hard to avoid comparing the film to my own experience. Unlike Ana, I thought the film was exaggerated, in order to make a more dramatic story. That's fine, it's the hollywood style, but I think the movie was less powerful as a result. My high school had one teacher who may be similar to Ms. Johnson, since he was popular and respected by everyone. He required his students to work hard, but he also helped them both in and out of the classroom. But his help was more often given within the context of school: convincing students to apply to college, for example, or providing leadership and a role model when their families did not provide this. Dangerous Minds, however, focused on more dramatic help given by Ms. Johnson, such as sheltering a student from a murderer. The exaggeration made an entertaining story, but the happy ending especially was unrealistic -- the problems continue at schools like this.
Style Comparison
I noticed in particular that Dangerous Minds followed a very typical American storyline of someone in an uncomfortable and difficult situation succeeding against all odds, while Entre les Murs focused on the general difficulties and ongoing struggle of being a teacher when the students don't want to be taught. I don't think that everything that occurred in Dangerous Minds was unrealistic or impossible, but it was definitely skewed towards the kind of story that audiences in the United States expect to see.
I first watched "Dangerous Minds" and after seeing kids who behaved like that, students in "Entre les Murs" seemed like little kittens. Two movies also represent two different ages of students. While "Entre les Murs" talks about students who are 13-14 years old, the American movie talks about older teenagers. The difference between their behavours is certainly due to the difference between cultures, but I think that difference between their age also makes a difference. Older students are getting bigger, older, more confident, more themselves, and they will more easily get up in the middle of the class, ignore the professor completely, etc. These older students also had longer time growing up in bad neighbourhood, seen more of the bad stuff, and therefore are much harder to handle.
I don't think that the way student in "Entre les murs" respond to professor should be considered passive. Quite the contrary. Sure, they are less physical, but they stand up and argue their opinions more that the students in "Dangerous minds". They argue even when there is no real meaning to it, all the time and they use teachers own weapen, the words, to fight against him. I guess we are talking about two different kinds of rebellion.
When it comes to teachers, in the American movie, as it is case very often, the main character is the hero, the saviour, their "light". She gets them in the right way, she changes them. She changes who they are, how they behave and how they think. She focuses more on getting them to want to learn, desire to accomplish something on their own, which I think is pretty American and I say this in all good ways. On the other hand, the French professor manages to teach them more material, but he doesn't actually changes their behaviour and the way they are. On the contrary, with his disrespect towards the student, he causes worse response in my opinion.
The way I could justify this is looking at the length of their experience. Every time anybody start working in a new place, esepcially in the places like this one, they are full of enthusiasm, have more energy, and more hope that they can change things. They invest more, like LouAnne. On the other hand, Francois has worked there for a while and maybe he lost the hope of changing the students, so he just spends time arguing with them and humiliating them. Still, I like his attitude, I would totaly want him as a friend. :D
Comparison between the stories
Premise/Beginning
Mr. Marin had a head start on Louanne: Apparently he knew the students from the previous year, a fact that we learned through his dealings with the student who didn't want to read the excerpt from Anne Frank's Diary. The teachers in ELM also had compared notes about their kids in their class, something Louanne definitely didn't have.
Louanne had no idea who she was teaching until she stepped into the classroom; a room full of rowdy students who had completely disrespect for her.
Important Events
The "troublemakers" were Souleman and Emilio in ELM and DM, respectively. Souleman was expelled by committee, while Emilio was murdered on the streets. There were more important milestones in DM - Louanne visiting Raul, Emilio, and Gusmaro's parents after the big fight, the dinner with her students, and being able to relate poetry to her student's lives. In ELM, the only important events were the part where he couldn't get his student to read an excerpt from the book, and the incident involving Souleman.
Ending
I thought the ending for ELM was abrupt - After the incident with Souleman the filmmakers basically showed a montage of a better-behaved class and, possibly, the effects of not having a disruptive student in the class. The assumption was that Mr. Marin will be back for another year.
DM had a Hollywood ending---even after Emilio died, the kids realized just how valuable their teacher was and begged their hero to stay, which she did.
Le début est à peu pret le même pour les deux film, ce qui changé c'est comment les professeur vous remédier aux problèmes qui se posent à eux. Ceci va influer sur la suite du film.
Dans Dangerous Mind, le professeur se met tout de suite au niveau des élèves pour résoudre le problème de communication qu'elle a avec eux. On ne voit jamais le point de vue de l'administration.
Dans Entre les murs, le professeur choisit de repousser le problème en le donnant au directeur de l'école qui va simplement appliquer le réglement intérieur de l'école. Il y a une barrière entre le proffeur et ses élève qui est assimilé, pour lui, au respect que doivent avoir ses élèves envers lui. Il ne veut pas rentrer en contact avec ses élèves tout simplement parce qu'il ne veut pas devenir leur ami.
Au final, le professuer dans Dangerous Minds arrive à ses fin et nous avons plus ou moins un fin heureuse. Dans Entre les murs, on a pas vraimant la vision finale du professeur de français. On ne sait pas s'il est attristé du fait que l'élève se soit fait viré de l'école. On a tout simplement pas cette vision parce que pour nous aussi on a pas a ressentir ce que pense le professeur. I la fait un choix et on doit le respecter. de ce point de vu, il y a l'aspect de la solitude que cela entraine, le professuer face à sa classe de 30 élèves, qui ne doit penser que par lui même et prendre des décisions seules, les décisions qu"il pense juste pour le bien être de sa classe.
Après avoir suivi les deux films il m'a semblé evident qu'ils n'avaient pas les mêmes objectifs. Pendant que l'un, ELM, essaiyait de refleter la réalité, l'autre, DM, prenait plutôt une dimension hollywoodienne des films.
Au debut, on comprend bien que les deux films exposent le problème de dialogue entre un professeur et sa classe. Mais DM pousse plus loin le problème dans la mesure où Louane n'avait pas été prevenue à l'avance et que les élèves lui ont totalement manqué de respect.
Dans le corps des films, ELM n'a pas arrêté de nous montrer ce qui se passe dans la vraie vie (en France) où le professeur tient à maintenir un certain registre (VOUS et non TU) entre lui et ses élèves. Alors que DM montre plutot ce qui se passerait à l'idéal: le prof se met au niveau de ses élèves pour faire passer le courant (l'habillement de Louane au deuxième cours), le prof s'implique dans la vie des élèves.
Sur la fin, ELM reste fidèle à sa dimension réalitiste: Souleyman est chassé et François n'a jamais pu maîtriser sa classe. Alors que DM aurait eu une fin parfaite s'il n'y avait pas eu la mort d'Emilio car Louane a su gagner la confiance de ses élèves.
En conclusion, il faut dire que pendant que ELM se contentait de relater la réalité, DM quant à lui, dans un atmosphère dramatique, essaiyait de donner aux profs quelques astuces pour maîtriser une classes d'élèves revoltés.
I agree with Lissy that maybe being so involved in students' lives (as Louane was) is not very realistic. However, I wonder, do you think that a teacher should only be academically involved in his/her students' lives? Don't you think that teachers sometimes can and should give general advice about something that they have gone through before and know more about? I mean, after all teachers are people as well, they can be helpful outside school as well...I wonder because I know in some societies talking to teachers about stuff outside school is not very well accepted :)
Start to finish
To me, it seems as though the storylines progress in opposite ways.
At the start of dangerous minds, the teacher has no relationship with the students. In order to develop one, she really gives the students some freedom and tries to make the experience fun. She seems to really respect the students. By the end, the students are learning and enjoying it.
In the case of Entre les Murs, the students and teacher seem to already be aquainted. Throughout the course of the film, the teacher disrespects the students repeatedly and has no faith in their abilities. Ultimately, things are very damaged. To be fair, this film is far more realistic.
Overview
Both films tries to capture the toughness of the educational system within these days. Both films explore the difficulties both students and teachers find in the educational process.
The problems of modern education behind the film
Regardless the problems French and American education might have, the process of incorpore knowledge as is known today is a medieval institution, borned with the first "Universitas", places where the students went to learn how things worked, expand their own Universe and receive the "light" of knowledge. It is probably that this old institution might need some profound revision. It has been working the same way for more than 1500 years. How can we motivate people to recieve the knowledge necessary to transform this world in a better one?
The story
Even both stories might appear similiar, they reflect the problems the French and American society faces nowadays with the students. The producers choose to set the stories reflecting the most marginal students. In less than 2 hours of film this is a good way to stress the main points about education. The underlying problem in both films seem to be the lack of motivation in the students to learn, even though is well know how important is education in their lives. In my opinion, "Entre les murs" reflects a more real story than "Dangerous minds" but both gives us a good approximation of what problems modern societies are facing in their Educational Systems.
The end
"Dangerous minds" has a happy hollywood ending. "Entre les murs" make us think about the future of the main characters of the movie. However, In my opinion, the richiest part of both movies is the way LouAnne and M. Marin interacts with their students and how they tackle the different problems.
I agree with Jovana that the differences in the storyline have also to do with their age differences. In "Entre les murs" the students were in middle school, and need to have more structure in classes to learn the basics of the french language, etc. In "Dangerous Minds", the structure of class still needs to be there, but what was more important was showing the students that they had the potential to learn and do well in school, so they would continue and graduate.
@ Benjamin
I feel like at the end of Entre les Murs, part of the somber ending was because what transpired is partly because of what the teacher did and said to his students. He made a mistake and there are consequences. Sometimes, as often in real life situations, they are irreparable.
In Dangerous Minds, the teacher made many mistakes during her teaching but each time, things turned out in her favor. She managed to gain the trust of her students through her mistakes and in the end she succeeded.
It seems that making mistakes is a big deal in France. Do people usually live life trying not to make mistakes or go through life knowing that one will make mistakes and planning to make the best out of the mistake?
There is also another movie called Stand and Deliver that I think would have also been slightly closer to ELM. DM was a typical "teacher movie." It is one similar to a typical romantic comedy in the US. You already know how it begins and how its going to end but you just watch to see what happens in the middle. I think the mundaneness although, unpredicatability of ELM was what made it interesting. The incomplete ending says to me that the French (or at least just the producers of the film) realize that there are things wrong with the system and that helping students goes beyond the classroom. I think one thing DM said about the teaching system was the lack of compassion that there is for teachers. Here many are underpaid and overworked. Does France have strict rules for hiring teachers or are some allowed to "slip through the cracks" like Louanne did simply because someone was needed?
In the US, there is a phrase we use for many films and stories: suepension of disbelief. The film Dangerous Minds requires the audience to suspend their disbelief throughout the entire film, especially when circumstances seem to work out so well for the teacher. She seemed to earn the trust of her students very quickly. She was not penalized by the board of education for her breaching of certain rules. This is what some people would simplly label as "Hollywood" and then go on with their lives. This might be because Americans often enjoy movies for the sheer inplausibility of the plot. Maybe they feel happier because the character in the film was able to succeed in whatever way she did in the film.
Do the French prefer movies that are more realistic? Is there a limit to suspending one's belief beyond which the film is just no longer enjoyable?
@ Lucy
I think in international countries in general movies can never be (well, maybe not never but almost) like Hollywood ones even though some people try hard. In Bulgaria, they don't go even close, maybe people have more experience in the USA. I have seen a lot of very realistic movies in my country, almost like documentaries and people don't enjoy them as much. I guess our directors can't make up (in the good way) such interesting events as directors here and of course there is the huge factor that is the movie industry is sooo poor, they can't afford expensive screening and actors such as those in Hollywood. I don't think DM is very expensive movie though but still... I wonder what the difference is for the budgets of the two movies - ELM and DM. I was only able to find the gross which is more than 50 times bigger for DM. Do you think the money put in the screening of the movie affects the way the story is told- whether it is more realistic or not?
@ Yoana
I think money plays a very important role. Just look at the French movie. It was shot in one building, pretty convinient. On the other hand, DM had so many different scenes and locations:school, her home, supermarket, Raul's house, rollercoster, the restaurant... with all the supporting actors, all the statists in the background... and this movie was probably not even quarter of the price of other hollywood movies since it doesn't have any special effects. I wish I knew what the exact numbers for both movies are...
While I agree with everything that has been said about budget, hollywood, production value, etc. it is also important to keep in mind that the directors of the films may have just been aiming for two different end goals. Because Entre les murs was shot in the way of a documentary, it evokes emotions and thoughts that Dangerous Minds cannot. The "feel" of the two movies are very different. I think it is just something important to recognize, although I have no idea what the visions of each director was or if they were constrained by resources.
I agree with Danielle. I think the sort of documentary type filming in ELM gives a very different feel from DM. However, things may feel even different in The Class since it is dubbed. I'm not sure if we can completely tell the intended tone.
Similarly, in DM there is a bunch of very silly humor. This is not the case of ELM. It seems to be a much more serious film even though the two are discussing the same thing.
Do french films have this classic bad/silly american comedy? Is this an american culture thing?
@ Ana.
I really liked that Ana could share her own experiences in this conversation. I feel that the evidence gave her story more credibility.
@ the other person from a similar neighborhood but disagrees with Ana
I feel that even the existance of one teacher gives the story some credibility right? the premise of the movie is that this teacher, like the teacher you mention, is special. And even though most teachers don't go out of their way for students, there can be an exception who goes above and beyond.
@ Yoana
I agree with Danielle. Entre les Murs is a documentary and thus the setting is more ordinary than if the movie has explosions and car crashes. However, the general setting for Dangerous Minds is also quite simple. The only difference I see is that there is more variety in Dangerous Minds (the restaurant, amusement park, school, students' homes). In Entre les Murs, the setting is limited strictly to that one school, with its playground and classrooms and stairways. That might account for the difference in money spent. Also, it is possible that publicity is a bigger thing in the US. Posters, TV trailers, etc.
Are there many movie trailers in France? Also, how often do the French go to a theater and watch a movie? Those numbers may further explain why Dangerous Minds cost more to make.
Going of of Danielle's comment, the film style of both movies is very different. The styles of the directors envokes emotions that enhance the feelings they want us to have. For example, the scenes in the classroom (where we are supposed to feel hopeful) are warmly lit in yellows and oranges. On the other hand, the lighting in Entre les Murs brings out the fluorescent lighting of real classrooms. The colors are dark and blue. Entre les Murs is supposed to feel like a real story. Dangerous Minds is more idealized.
This can also be seen in the music or lack thereof. (Dangerous Minds has an upbeat 80's soudtrack where as Entre les Murs is like real life, sadly without a soundtrack).
I thought the stll shots of the empty classroom in between days in Entre les Murs were very powerful.
Yes, I agree with what has been said after my last comment. I'm not saying it is always better if the movie is very expensive production. Actually, there are a lot of examples of movies that are low-budget and still very deep and worth seeing. I think since they have no cool effects and flashing lights, these movies rely only on the story and so the story needs to be good enough so that people still go and watch them.
I wonder how many new movies were produced in France recently and how many of them are popular worldwide? Was ELM popular in the USA at all?