- 12:31pm Oct
10, 2001

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Je vois que les français et les américains ont une vue très des banlieues. Pour les français, les banlieues sont liées à la insécurité, la violence, les problèmes (sociaux) et la pauvreté, tandis que pour les américains, on voit plutôt les mots commes "green (trees, parks)", "home", "quiet" et "peaceful". En vue de cela, je vous pose deux questions :"Connaissez-vous des banlieues de paris?", "Envisagez vous de trouver une maison aux banlieues dans le futur?"

- 04:26pm Oct
10, 2001

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Yeah, I know in France you have all those problems with immigrants in the banlieus. It seems mostly African immigrants from Morocco, Algeria and Subsaharan Africa which live in poorer conditions. How about the "baraques"? Do they occur in inner-cities? Or in the suburbs?

I guess banlieu in France is a bit like inner-city in the US. The US gets basketball players from inner city ghettos and France gets football stars like Anelka ;-p

- 12:17am Oct
11, 2001

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Suburbs in America are often cleaner and safer than cities, most likely because there are fewer inhabitants, and therefore, suburbs are easier to police. Most often, people in suburbs often have a sense of community and to a certain extent, watch out for each other. As a result of the safety suburbs offer, it is more expensive to live in a suburb. Thus, immigrants often head for the cities, perhaps increasing the separation between the cities and suburbs. Any ideas on why our two countries developed so differently?

- 12:53pm Oct 11,
2001

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Brian, j'ai aucune idée sur ta question... mais j'ai une hypothèse. Par exemple à Paris, c'est la charme de Paris qui tire les "riches" envers sa centre donc les loyers et prix de ventes y sont chers. Et ça a été comme ça depuis toute histoire (je suis pas sûr sur ce point). Tandis que pour les villes américains, elles sont plutôt nouvelles, et elles sont été "construites" d'après un certain modèle européen... et aussi peut-être il y a derrière une idée de décentralisation...

- 11:07pm Oct
11, 2001

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I think the government plays an important role in suburbanization in the US. The americans like to explore the untouched area, so does the government. In the US, suburbanization has been boosted by the government - many high ways got constructed, US has the highest number for automobile per family, real estate market has invested heavily in the construction of new homes, office spaces, and shopping malls in suburban. Because the availability of capital, all these were made possible in a very short period of time, and this has stimulated the domestic economy. At the same time, the government has ignored inner city development. One example is that most US cities have slums.

Thus, the two force, the pull - the better environment, the convenient transportation of the suburb, the push - the degrading inner city life qualify, has worked together to attract many middle class families to locate in the suburb.

I think the French government, on the contray, has paid lots of attention on improving the quality of city life, thus maintained a nice environment for most cities. But I am really surprised to know that the suburbs are in such a bad condition. Is that just because of immigrant? Did the French government try to do anything about it?

- 07:07am Oct
12, 2001

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Le problème en France a été la crise des logements. Le gouvernement a fait construire à la hâte de grandes barres d'immeuble autour des villes pour pouvoir loger le plus de personnes possibles, sans vraiment tenir compte de la qualité de vie. Ces logements étant beaucoup moins chers que ceux se trouvant en ville, ils ont attirés des populations pauvres, la plupart du temps des immigrés qui fuyaient la misère de leur pays. La qualité de vie s'est vraiment dégradée ces dernières années dans ces banlieues. La plupart des jeunes y sont au chomage et trainent toute la journée. On ne peut pas dire que le gouvernement fasse vraiment grand chose pour les aider.

- 01:55pm Oct
13, 2001

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Yes, I believe in Europe housing is very different from the US. Most people tend to live in large apartment buildings since the population density is much larger. In my country, Spain, I think the tendency is even greater than in France to build large buildings. I don't really know why, since these tiny apartments tend to be just as expensive as individual houses in the US. The result is that the price of land in Europe is extremely expensive, since many more homes can be built per square metre, so that in turn houses become even more expensive. It's seems to go in a cycle...
Even so, people in Europe seem to like living closer together and having more people in more space usually means that a lot more services will be available in the surroundings to cater for their needs.
What do you think?

- 01:55pm
Oct 13, 2001

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"Is that just because of immigrant? "

Il faut faire attention à ce que l'on dit. La cause n'est pas l'immigration mais les conditions dans lesquelles les immigrés vivent. Une grande partie de ceux qui habitent en banlieue sont issus de l'immigration, alors bien sûr quand il y a un problème on a vite fait d'accuser les immigrés. C'est le racourci facile utilisé par les racistes de tous poil. C'est pas l'immigration le problème, c'est la pauvreté.

"Did the French government try to do anything about it?"

Je sais pas si tu sais mais ici les élections présidentielles sont pour bientôt donc comme d'habitude la démagogie est de sortie. Les problèmes liés à l'insécurité étant au coeur de beaucoup de débats, les politiques, de droite comme de gauche, nous promettent plus de policiers ce qui arrangent la plupart des Français.

- 01:58pm Oct
13, 2001

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Aa, by the way... I don't see it necessarily is a fault of the government, since it is not always directly involved. It is more like the free market. The only way that could stop this is to have more government regulation and more extensive planning, so that population density is reduced by limiting the number of inhabitants per square meter in a given area. Local governments do in fact regulate this, but follow different standards from those prevalent in the US.

- 02:04pm Oct
13, 2001

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I think immigration is in fact part of the problem. But don't get me wrong: it is just ILLEGAL immigration that I vehemently oppose. The problem is that illegal immigrants are coming in at a rate faster than the country can absorb them. Countries like France don't have the social resources and the wealth needed to sustain such uncontrolled immigration in one go, and that is why social problems and poverty result. This is further aggravated in Europe because of the high unemployment rate, so that not all illegal immigrants can find jobs right away.

- 04:22pm
Oct 13, 2001

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"Countries like France don't have the social resources and the wealth needed to sustain such uncontrolled immigration in one go, and that is why social problems and poverty result."

L'argent ça peut se trouver assez facilement, il suffit de savoir le partager.

"This is further aggravated in Europe because of the high unemployment rate, so that not all illegal immigrants can find jobs right away."

Beh si en général les immigrés clandestins trouvent du travail. Mais c'est en général un travail où ils se font exploiter.

Mais les problèmes de délinquance sont souvent le fait de jeunes dont les parents ou les grand-parents ont immigré en France et non des immigrés clandestins.

- 10:53am Oct 14,
2001

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Is it easier for immigrants and poor people to survive in the suburbs in France? That seems weird because in the US, or at least in NY, it is the opposite. I live in a suburb of nyc and it is very green and wealthy. I cannot imagine it being anything else just because there is almost no real public transportation or places for people with little money to stay. In the city, however, with so many places to sleep, so many ways of getting around and getting free food, it seems like the logical place for people to get by when they don't have a lot of money.

- 12:58pm Oct
14, 2001

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"L'argent ça peut se trouver assez facilement, il suffit de savoir le partager"

I didn't simply mean money by that. I meant all kind of social suport, from schools to social security and hospitals. If there is an avalanche of illegal immigrants, the government simply finds it really hard to provide all the new services needed to keep all these people living under humane living standards.

"Mais c'est en général un travail où ils se font exploiter. "

That's also what I mean by illegal immigration being a bad thing. These people are in a position where they are easily exploited because of their illegal status. As a result, they have worse jobs and often no social security or services provided to French citizens. This is a bad thing since it lowers living standards in the country as a whole, and must hence be prevented.

- 04:21pm Oct
14, 2001

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Je ne pense pas que le problème en France viennent des immigrés clandestins. Ce ne sont généralement pas eux qui vivent dans les banlieues les plus dangereuses. Les immigrés clandestins sont des personnes qui fuient la misère de leur pays et aimeraient trop vivre tranquillement en France. Le problème vient vraiment des populations pauvres déjà installées en France depuis plusieurs générations. Ils se révoltent contre leurs conditions de vie.
En réponse à Anna, il est beaucoup plus facile (si on peut dire ça comme ça) de vivre en banlieue que dans les villes. Les logements en ville sont beaucoup trop chers pour eux. Par contre en banlieues, les logements sont tellement délabrés qu'ils ne valent rien.

Il y a aussi peut-être une chose que vous ne prenez pas en compte: en France, les personnes n'ayant pas beaucoup de revenus sont aidées financièrement par le gouvernement. Elles habitent généralement dans des logements qui appartiennet à la ville. Mais il est évident que les logements que les municipalités mettent à leur service ne se situent pas dans les quartiers aisés mais là où personne ne veut vivre.

- 10:24pm Oct
14, 2001

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Why is housing in the suburbs worth so little in France? Once there is no more space in the city, where does expansion occur? Or do prices just keep going up in the city & more expensive prices are paid to live or have a business there?
I guess I can see how the more privileged would want to be right in the middle of everything in the city ... I find it interesting that by contrast Americans who have money want to be outside of the center of town. Maybe our rich citizens are snobbier than yours ... what do you think?

- 10:33pm Oct 14,
2001

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While I honestly do not know the specifics of poverty in France, I agree with Capucine that illegal immigration, and the burden it places on social services, is most often not the cause of widespread poverty in a given area. It seems to me that people often forget that illegal immigrants, just like legal immigrants or anyone else, are consumers, and therefore make a positive contribution to their neighborhood's and their country's economy.

- 08:20am Oct 16,
2001

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I think it's interesting and good that the suburban style of community is being criticized and questioned more often now. Suburbs create isolation, extreme dependence on cars, huge ugly parking lots, pollution, and poor terrain for pedestrians--in other words, sprawl. I would definitely like to see more people live in cities and urban small towns--places where residential and commercial areas are more integrated and there is less dependence on cars. Americans use more energy per capita than any country in the world, a fact I'm not especially proud of.

- 09:16pm Oct
16, 2001

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"illegal immigrants, just like legal immigrants or anyone else, are consumers"
Yes, but more often than not, illegal immigrants come to prosperous countries (like France, the US, etc.) hoping to find a job, make money, start a new life. This all too often means that illegal immigrants are poor and can not really be "consumers" in the classic sense of the word.

"Suburbs create isolation, extreme dependence on cars, huge ugly parking lots, pollution, and poor terrain for pedestrians"
I'm not entirely sure I'd agree with this. While I would concede that suburbs have a nasty tendency to become isolated and elitist, note that the heaviest pollution is in fact in cities. Furthermore, I'd much rather walk through a wide-open suburban community than try and dodge cars on the narrow dirty streets of Boston. It seems to me that the biggest problem is our lack of a good public transportation system to move people from suburb to city, which would cut down on traffic and energy dependency significantly. Most of the public transportation I have been on is slow, dirty, and rarely follows a schedule. I have heard that transportation is better in Europe. How is the public transportation in France?

- 07:22pm Oct
17, 2001

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Les transports publics fonctionnent très bien en France. Pour se déplacer en région parisienne, il est peu recommandé de se servir de sa voiture à cause des embouteillages. Lorsque nous nous rendons de Evry à Paris par exemple nous prenons un train qui s'appelle RER. Même pour se rendre d'une grande ville à une autre il est préférable de prendre le train, ce que beaucoup de personnes font. Beaucoup d'étudiants n'ont pas de voitures et se debrouillent très bien sans.