hey everyone- i thought it was interesting how the reason for jack's mother not taking care of the baby was very different in each version of the movie. in the french one, she was going on vacation and traveling for several months. in the american one, she wanted jack to learn responsibility. it was also interesting that jack had to visit her in the french one while his mom visited him in the american one. in the french version, it appears that jack's relationship with his mom isn't very close and that she doesn't really want to get involved with his life. in the american version it appears that his mom cares about him very much which is why she's not taking the baby away. do you guys think that this reflects anything of french culture/family life or is it just part of the movie and not representative?
The thing I found most interesting about the two mothers was that, contrary to the cultural trends we have seen so far in these forums, Jacques's mom was the more indirect, while Jack's mother came right out and said that she didn't want to take care of the baby and it was time for Jack to be responsible.
It seemed to me that Jacques's mother did not want to take care of the baby, and her cruise, followed by an ill-planned trip to visit friends elsewhere in France were convenient excuses to force Jacques to deal with Marie on his own. Jack's mother, on the other hand, came right out and said that it was time for him to learn some responsibility. She has raised her own children, and it's time for these children to finish growing up.
So far we have seen that the French are far more direct than Americans. These two scenes from these movies are an intersting contradiction to that.
Dans la version américaine, la mère donne une sorte de leçon à son fils. Elle lui dit, qu'il doit enfin prendre en main sa vie et assumer. Elle lui fait un peu la morale.
De l'autre côté, le mère de Jacques veut s'épanouir, enfin faire ce qu'elle veut et s'occuper d'elle-même. Elle ne fait pas de reproches à Jacques et ne lui dit pas qu'il ne s'est pas bien comporté et qu'il a toujours été immature.
Honnêtement, je verrais plus la mère française plus sévère et froide (le rôle aue jouait la mère américaine) et la mère américaine qui veut s'amuser, etc. Je ne sais pas ce que vous en penser??
When I saw the French version (which I saw first), I was expecting the Jacques mother to preach him a little bit about his responsibilities as the father, and just as you, I was surprised when it didn't happen.
On the other hand, I couldn't picture the american version with the same scene, the mother just wanting to take off, going to some crazy place to have fun. So to answer your question, I found more surprising the French version. But I guess that as a comedy, the French type of scene suits better, than the moral one in the American version.
agree with you, maud. i think that the american version does have a moral tint to it. it seems to be a recurring motif that the american version is instilling morals through the comedy film. the mom's actions in the american version is to teach that children are wonderful things that make you grow and and take responsibility, yet also make you stop to think about how precious life is now that you have this child. in the french version, it just seems to be that a person's own interests comes before the interests of others. the french mother wants to go vacation, and the french jacques wants his life back without the inconvenience of a child. i definitely think the american version is promoting good will and feeding morals to it's viewers.
I agree that the mother in the French movie was not as harsh in the way that she did not go off and tell Jacques this and that about how he should take responsibility. However, I think that this is implied, because she did not exactly cancel her plans to take care of the baby for him. She would have helped her son, though, had she been available. That's what mothers and family are for: to help each other out when it's needed. I don't really know what the purpose is of this difference between the two movies.
Je trouve ce passage du film intéressant dans la comparaison des cultures américaines et françaises. On sent que les relations parents-enfants sont plus importantes aux USA qu'en France. La mère de Jacques lui reproche de ne jamais lui donner de ses nouvelles ni de venir la voir. Tandis que dans la version US, on sent que Jack et sa mère sont plus liés.
Intéressant également dans sa vision des personnes agées. On sent dans la version française que les personnes agées sont très actives: elles profitent de la vie en partant en voyage et en faisant la fête. La mère américaine donne quant à elle une image plus stricte et raffinée.
J'aimerais savoir si vous pensez que la réaction d'une mère correspondrait effectivement au comportement qu'a eu la mère américaine? Ou est-ce qu'elle se dirait plus facilement prête à aider son fils? Ou pensez-vous qu'elle aurait la réaction de la mère française qui veut enfin faire ce qui lui plaît et ne plus avoir toutes les contraintes d'une mère?
Il y'as de grande diférences entre les deux scènes dans le comportement des personnages. En effet dans la version américaine Jacques semble savoir qu'abandonner l'enfant en le confiant a sa mère est une erreure et il éssaie donc de faire passer la pillule en usant de flagornerie, et en essayant de fiare aimer le bébé à sa mère. Dans la version française jaques n'essaie même pas, en allant visiter sa mère avec le bébé (plustot que de la faire venir comme dans la version américaine) il essaie même de lui forcer la main. Il est plus directe dans sa façon d'approcher le sujet, n'essayant pas comme Jack d'obtenir ce qu'il veut par la douceur. De même la mère de Jack refuse de l'aider parcequ'elle considère qu'il doit prendre ses résponsabilité. Elle le lui explique et lui fait la morale. Alors que la mère de Jacques essaie plustôt d'utiliser un faux pretexte : son voyage pour fuire cet résponsabilité.
On remarque donc comme précédemment que les personnage français ne savent pas ou ne veulent pas prendre leurs résponsabilité contrairement aux personnages américains qui savent ce qu'on attend d'eux (Jack s'attendait à un refus puisqu'ils essayait de faire passer la pillule en présentant le bébé à sa mère...)
Les deux mères ne semblent pas elles non plus issues de la même classe sociale. La mère américaine est bien habillée, maquillée, elle porte des gants, elle fait la morale alors que la mère française est plus vulgaire, plus commune et plus égoïste. On dirait qu'elle sort du lit. Là encore, on remarque que l'histoire ne se déroule pas dans le même contexte social. Mais nous considérons que la mère américaine est un peu trop artificielle, un peu trop "glamour" pour être vrai. Est-ce que les gens se doivent d'être toujours ainsi impeccablement mis en Amérique?
I didn't find the French mother's reaction that surprising. she is just as selfish and irresponsible as her son is. And maybe Jacques turned out this way because of his mother. She doesn't think at all about her grand-daughter well-being, neither about her son being a responsible father, but maybe it's the way she did all her life. Maybe her character is a kind of excuse for Jacques being such a jerk. She might also want to say to Jacques it is not her business but she doesn't know how to say it so she finds excuses so that Jacques thinks if she hadn't had plans she would have taken the baby. But I found Jack's mother behaviour surprising because it made me wonder how he could be such a bad father (at this point of the film) while he had such a perfect mother. I think the mother's reaction doesn't really fit with her son's behaviour since the beginning of the movie.
Salut à tous. Dans la version française c'est Jacques qui se déplace et prend l'avion pour Nice pour aller voir sa mère. Alors que dans le film américain Jack téléphone à sa mère et c'est elle qui vient à la rencontre de son fils. Sinon on remarque que des deux côtés la mère de Jacques/Jack refuse d'aider son fils. Dans la version américaine la mère se veut plus moralisatrice sur la responsabilisation de son fils quant à son nouveau rôle de père qu'il doit pleinement assumer alors que dans la version française la mère de Jacques pretexte qu'elle a des choses à faire (voyager ...) et qu'elle n'a donc pas le temps de s'occuper de Marie.
Sophie: When discussing Jack's mother you asked "Est-ce que les gens se doivent d'être toujours ainsi impeccablement mis en Amérique?" The answer is no. Like most things in Hollywood movies, the general appearance of Jack's mother has little basis in reality. But then again, one could make the argument that since Jack is a reasonably successful actor, the usual rules pertaining to clothing don't apply to Jack and his family. Also, isn't it the French who have the reputation for always dressing impeccably?
Prune: I agree with what you said about Jacques' mother. But personally, I was not surprised by Jack's mother and I definitely wouldn't say that Jack's mother was perfect. This is because Jack's mother was really soft in the way she treated Jack. If Jack's mother were perfect, then she would have severely criticized Jack for trying to neglect his responsibilities as a father. However, she didn't tell him this directly. It seems that Jack's mother has strong moral integrity, but she has no idea how to teach these lessons to her kids. Had she taught these lessons properly to Jack when he was a child, Jacques never would have considered abandoning his child. Jack's behavior during the entire movie led me to believe that his mother wasn't one to crack the whip, so I wasn't surprised by her softness in dealing with important matters.
One first-fast question...why are some french students writing in English? (It's pure curiosity of mine). I ask because I have also seen another person in another part of the forum do it...
I said I was surprised, because I guess the reaction I would be expecting of a mother is to be of help of their children, even if it means to be critical of their actions. But I agree that no parents are perfect, and maybe the reason Jacques turned out to be such an irresponsible person, is because he's repeating patterns he saw in his childhood...
What would be the normal reaction that a normal french would expect from his mother? Direct, indirect?
Joel said in message #8, "Intéressant également dans sa vision des personnes agées. On sent dans la version française que les personnes agées sont très actives: elles profitent de la vie en partant en voyage et en faisant la fête. La mère américaine donne quant à elle une image plus stricte et raffinée." i am wondering if it was generally the case that old people can benefit from their lives and go traveling, leaving all cares and responsibilities behind? it seems that here in the US, people's responsibilities grow as they grow older. it is mostly the younger people (meaning teen or twenties)who are willing to take the time out of their lives to go out and play. when people are older, they tend to settle down into respective lives with responsibilities as caring for the house, pets, children, jobs, or even grandchildren. i also think that families in the US tend to keep in touch with each other more often than the french version mother-son relation. so what is the real case in franch today?
You have a good point on how it takes an irresponsible mother to raise an irresponsible son. Regardless, I think that there are many reasons why Jack (American) is irresponsible why his mother seemingly isn't. Since she seemed so rich, it could be that he was spoiled while he was growing up---maybe not by her, but by everyone else.
Did you notice that in the American version, the mother seemed to doubt everything Jack said? While he gushed over her, commenting on how the baby loves her, takes to her, etc, she said "Dont spoil this for me.." and eventually "What do you want?" as though she knew from the beginning that all his compliments were false. I think this shows that she is used to Jack's tactics and can almost read her son like a book. Even her decision to let him take responsibility for the baby seemed as though it might have been waiting to be said for years....as though she had been waiting for that moment when she wouldn't have to put up with any of his irresponsibility.
I do have a question: did anyone really notice the other woman who was with Jacques's mother at the time Jacques went to drop of the baby? Was it just me or did the behavior and manner of speech of Jacques mother to the woman suggest that the they may be partners? If this is the case, why would the French incorporate it into a comedy that has no direct connection with sexual orientation. It seemed as though the makers were trying to make a political statement, placing a female partner in a scene that would have worked just as well with only the mother.....So, to my ultimate question.....is the issue of homosexuality and other forms of sexual orientation a cause of political debate in France as it is in the United States?
I thought the same thing too about the woman who was with Jacques's mother... I thought Jacques's mom said something like "Marie... almost like _my_ Marie-Rose." I don't know if it has a different connotation in French, but in English that almost connotates some special connection...
Je voulais juste réagir en indiquant que je pense me souvenir que la mère de Jacques répond 'presque comme toi, Marie-Rose' ce qui n'a aucune connotation particulière (du moins en France ;°) .
Discussion
hey everyone- i thought it was interesting how the reason for jack's mother not taking care of the baby was very different in each version of the movie. in the french one, she was going on vacation and traveling for several months. in the american one, she wanted jack to learn responsibility. it was also interesting that jack had to visit her in the french one while his mom visited him in the american one. in the french version, it appears that jack's relationship with his mom isn't very close and that she doesn't really want to get involved with his life. in the american version it appears that his mom cares about him very much which is why she's not taking the baby away. do you guys think that this reflects anything of french culture/family life or is it just part of the movie and not representative?
christine
The thing I found most interesting about the two mothers was that, contrary to the cultural trends we have seen so far in these forums, Jacques's mom was the more indirect, while Jack's mother came right out and said that she didn't want to take care of the baby and it was time for Jack to be responsible.
It seemed to me that Jacques's mother did not want to take care of the baby, and her cruise, followed by an ill-planned trip to visit friends elsewhere in France were convenient excuses to force Jacques to deal with Marie on his own. Jack's mother, on the other hand, came right out and said that it was time for him to learn some responsibility. She has raised her own children, and it's time for these children to finish growing up.
So far we have seen that the French are far more direct than Americans. These two scenes from these movies are an intersting contradiction to that.
-Dina
Hi dear MIT students,
Dans la version américaine, la mère donne une sorte de leçon à son fils. Elle lui dit, qu'il doit enfin prendre en main sa vie et assumer. Elle lui fait un peu la morale.
De l'autre côté, le mère de Jacques veut s'épanouir, enfin faire ce qu'elle veut et s'occuper d'elle-même. Elle ne fait pas de reproches à Jacques et ne lui dit pas qu'il ne s'est pas bien comporté et qu'il a toujours été immature.
Honnêtement, je verrais plus la mère française plus sévère et froide (le rôle aue jouait la mère américaine) et la mère américaine qui veut s'amuser, etc. Je ne sais pas ce que vous en penser??
A bientôt. Maud
Maud,
When I saw the French version (which I saw first), I was expecting the Jacques mother to preach him a little bit about his responsibilities as the father, and just as you, I was surprised when it didn't happen.
On the other hand, I couldn't picture the american version with the same scene, the mother just wanting to take off, going to some crazy place to have fun. So to answer your question, I found more surprising the French version. But I guess that as a comedy, the French type of scene suits better, than the moral one in the American version.
Carolina
agree with you, maud. i think that the american version does have a moral tint to it. it seems to be a recurring motif that the american version is instilling morals through the comedy film. the mom's actions in the american version is to teach that children are wonderful things that make you grow and and take responsibility, yet also make you stop to think about how precious life is now that you have this child. in the french version, it just seems to be that a person's own interests comes before the interests of others. the french mother wants to go vacation, and the french jacques wants his life back without the inconvenience of a child. i definitely think the american version is promoting good will and feeding morals to it's viewers.
I agree that the mother in the French movie was not as harsh in the way that she did not go off and tell Jacques this and that about how he should take responsibility. However, I think that this is implied, because she did not exactly cancel her plans to take care of the baby for him. She would have helped her son, though, had she been available. That's what mothers and family are for: to help each other out when it's needed. I don't really know what the purpose is of this difference between the two movies.
Je trouve ce passage du film intéressant dans la comparaison des cultures américaines et françaises. On sent que les relations parents-enfants sont plus importantes aux USA qu'en France. La mère de Jacques lui reproche de ne jamais lui donner de ses nouvelles ni de venir la voir. Tandis que dans la version US, on sent que Jack et sa mère sont plus liés.
Intéressant également dans sa vision des personnes agées. On sent dans la version française que les personnes agées sont très actives: elles profitent de la vie en partant en voyage et en faisant la fête. La mère américaine donne quant à elle une image plus stricte et raffinée.
Joel
Hi dear MIT students!
J'aimerais savoir si vous pensez que la réaction d'une mère correspondrait effectivement au comportement qu'a eu la mère américaine? Ou est-ce qu'elle se dirait plus facilement prête à aider son fils? Ou pensez-vous qu'elle aurait la réaction de la mère française qui veut enfin faire ce qui lui plaît et ne plus avoir toutes les contraintes d'une mère?
Merci.
@+
Maud
hi evrybody
Il y'as de grande diférences entre les deux scènes dans le comportement des personnages. En effet dans la version américaine Jacques semble savoir qu'abandonner l'enfant en le confiant a sa mère est une erreure et il éssaie donc de faire passer la pillule en usant de flagornerie, et en essayant de fiare aimer le bébé à sa mère. Dans la version française jaques n'essaie même pas, en allant visiter sa mère avec le bébé (plustot que de la faire venir comme dans la version américaine) il essaie même de lui forcer la main. Il est plus directe dans sa façon d'approcher le sujet, n'essayant pas comme Jack d'obtenir ce qu'il veut par la douceur. De même la mère de Jack refuse de l'aider parcequ'elle considère qu'il doit prendre ses résponsabilité. Elle le lui explique et lui fait la morale. Alors que la mère de Jacques essaie plustôt d'utiliser un faux pretexte : son voyage pour fuire cet résponsabilité.
On remarque donc comme précédemment que les personnage français ne savent pas ou ne veulent pas prendre leurs résponsabilité contrairement aux personnages américains qui savent ce qu'on attend d'eux (Jack s'attendait à un refus puisqu'ils essayait de faire passer la pillule en présentant le bébé à sa mère...)
manu aka pikachu
Salut tout le monde!
Les deux mères ne semblent pas elles non plus issues de la même classe sociale. La mère américaine est bien habillée, maquillée, elle porte des gants, elle fait la morale alors que la mère française est plus vulgaire, plus commune et plus égoïste. On dirait qu'elle sort du lit. Là encore, on remarque que l'histoire ne se déroule pas dans le même contexte social. Mais nous considérons que la mère américaine est un peu trop artificielle, un peu trop "glamour" pour être vrai. Est-ce que les gens se doivent d'être toujours ainsi impeccablement mis en Amérique?
A bientôt, Sophie
Dear Maria,
I didn't find the French mother's reaction that surprising. she is just as selfish and irresponsible as her son is. And maybe Jacques turned out this way because of his mother. She doesn't think at all about her grand-daughter well-being, neither about her son being a responsible father, but maybe it's the way she did all her life. Maybe her character is a kind of excuse for Jacques being such a jerk. She might also want to say to Jacques it is not her business but she doesn't know how to say it so she finds excuses so that Jacques thinks if she hadn't had plans she would have taken the baby. But I found Jack's mother behaviour surprising because it made me wonder how he could be such a bad father (at this point of the film) while he had such a perfect mother. I think the mother's reaction doesn't really fit with her son's behaviour since the beginning of the movie.
Prune
Salut à tous. Dans la version française c'est Jacques qui se déplace et prend l'avion pour Nice pour aller voir sa mère. Alors que dans le film américain Jack téléphone à sa mère et c'est elle qui vient à la rencontre de son fils. Sinon on remarque que des deux côtés la mère de Jacques/Jack refuse d'aider son fils. Dans la version américaine la mère se veut plus moralisatrice sur la responsabilisation de son fils quant à son nouveau rôle de père qu'il doit pleinement assumer alors que dans la version française la mère de Jacques pretexte qu'elle a des choses à faire (voyager ...) et qu'elle n'a donc pas le temps de s'occuper de Marie.
Quelques commentaires vites:
Sophie: When discussing Jack's mother you asked "Est-ce que les gens se doivent d'être toujours ainsi impeccablement mis en Amérique?" The answer is no. Like most things in Hollywood movies, the general appearance of Jack's mother has little basis in reality. But then again, one could make the argument that since Jack is a reasonably successful actor, the usual rules pertaining to clothing don't apply to Jack and his family. Also, isn't it the French who have the reputation for always dressing impeccably?
Prune: I agree with what you said about Jacques' mother. But personally, I was not surprised by Jack's mother and I definitely wouldn't say that Jack's mother was perfect. This is because Jack's mother was really soft in the way she treated Jack. If Jack's mother were perfect, then she would have severely criticized Jack for trying to neglect his responsibilities as a father. However, she didn't tell him this directly. It seems that Jack's mother has strong moral integrity, but she has no idea how to teach these lessons to her kids. Had she taught these lessons properly to Jack when he was a child, Jacques never would have considered abandoning his child. Jack's behavior during the entire movie led me to believe that his mother wasn't one to crack the whip, so I wasn't surprised by her softness in dealing with important matters.
Allan.
Dear Prune,
One first-fast question...why are some french students writing in English? (It's pure curiosity of mine). I ask because I have also seen another person in another part of the forum do it...
I said I was surprised, because I guess the reaction I would be expecting of a mother is to be of help of their children, even if it means to be critical of their actions. But I agree that no parents are perfect, and maybe the reason Jacques turned out to be such an irresponsible person, is because he's repeating patterns he saw in his childhood...
What would be the normal reaction that a normal french would expect from his mother? Direct, indirect?
Carolina
Joel said in message #8, "Intéressant également dans sa vision des personnes agées. On sent dans la version française que les personnes agées sont très actives: elles profitent de la vie en partant en voyage et en faisant la fête. La mère américaine donne quant à elle une image plus stricte et raffinée." i am wondering if it was generally the case that old people can benefit from their lives and go traveling, leaving all cares and responsibilities behind? it seems that here in the US, people's responsibilities grow as they grow older. it is mostly the younger people (meaning teen or twenties)who are willing to take the time out of their lives to go out and play. when people are older, they tend to settle down into respective lives with responsibilities as caring for the house, pets, children, jobs, or even grandchildren. i also think that families in the US tend to keep in touch with each other more often than the french version mother-son relation. so what is the real case in franch today?
Prune,
You have a good point on how it takes an irresponsible mother to raise an irresponsible son. Regardless, I think that there are many reasons why Jack (American) is irresponsible why his mother seemingly isn't. Since she seemed so rich, it could be that he was spoiled while he was growing up---maybe not by her, but by everyone else.
Did you notice that in the American version, the mother seemed to doubt everything Jack said? While he gushed over her, commenting on how the baby loves her, takes to her, etc, she said "Dont spoil this for me.." and eventually "What do you want?" as though she knew from the beginning that all his compliments were false. I think this shows that she is used to Jack's tactics and can almost read her son like a book. Even her decision to let him take responsibility for the baby seemed as though it might have been waiting to be said for years....as though she had been waiting for that moment when she wouldn't have to put up with any of his irresponsibility.
I do have a question: did anyone really notice the other woman who was with Jacques's mother at the time Jacques went to drop of the baby? Was it just me or did the behavior and manner of speech of Jacques mother to the woman suggest that the they may be partners? If this is the case, why would the French incorporate it into a comedy that has no direct connection with sexual orientation. It seemed as though the makers were trying to make a political statement, placing a female partner in a scene that would have worked just as well with only the mother.....So, to my ultimate question.....is the issue of homosexuality and other forms of sexual orientation a cause of political debate in France as it is in the United States?
Chidinma
Hi Chidinma,
I thought the same thing too about the woman who was with Jacques's mother... I thought Jacques's mom said something like "Marie... almost like _my_ Marie-Rose." I don't know if it has a different connotation in French, but in English that almost connotates some special connection...
Suzanne
Salut à tous,
Je voulais juste réagir en indiquant que je pense me souvenir que la mère de Jacques répond 'presque comme toi, Marie-Rose' ce qui n'a aucune connotation particulière (du moins en France ;°) .
Voilà, my 2 cents
Clad, because you're funky !!!