La plus grosse différence d’après moi : on trouve beaucoup plus dans les réponses de gauche le fait de demander la raison de cette demande, et d’être confus ou apeuré, et peut être plus de docilité dans les réponses de droite… Pensez vous que les policiers américains inspirent plus de terreur ou au contraire que les français n’osent pas se confronter aux forces de l’ordre ?

A lot of Americans responses were about being “scared” / “scared for their life” / “confused” but none of the French had similar responses - in fact, some of the French responses were about defiance! I think that there could be two reasons to this: first, the American class is very racially diverse, which contributes to the amount of students who are scared of the police (I don’t know about the French class but this is not my first time questioning the diversity of the group). Second, I think the difference reflects the rate of police brutality in the US compared to in France. Perhaps police officers in France are a lot better? Are police allowed to carry guns in France? Do you ever hear accounts about racially-motivated police brutality (or just police brutality) in France?

@Mathieu: Police in the US have historically been allowed to get away with almost anything, and recent events prove that they can even get away with murder. It would be a different situation if it were just one rogue police officer, but many police officers across the country have hurt, arrested without cause, and killed American citizens - and mostly black American citizens. It’s not hard to deduce that these acts are racially motivated - just look at the statistics. When Beyonce recently came out with her music video for “Formation”, many white police officers were outraged and boycotting their jobs, even though the music video just simply asked them to “stop killing us” - it’s quite clear what they think their job is. I don’t know what the police situation is like in France, but I think it’s quite justified that so many Americans responded that they are scared and/or confused.

@hera013: Je pense en effet que les policiers français ont beaucoup moins de droit que les policiers américains. La moindre bavure policière entraine habituellement une grosse réaction de la part des médias, pour la condamner. Et par bavure je parle aussi de simplement avoir frappé quelqu’un qui se débattait, je ne sais pas si l’opinion publique est aussi sévère aux États-Unis ? De plus nous avons beaucoup d’associations contre le racisme qui agissent en cas de contrôle violent sur des personnes de couleur.

Pour ce qui est de la mixité de notre groupe, nous avons à l’enseirb-matmeca 20% d’étudiants étrangers et je pense que c’est à peu près le même ratio au sein de notre groupe de travail.

@hera013: les policiers français portent aussi une arme lorsqu’ils sont en service, mais je pense qu’en France, cette arme est plus qu’un symbole de dissuasion qu’autre chose. Je me trompe peut-être, mais j’ai l’impression que les policiers américains ont souvent tendance a sortir leur arme très rapidement ?
De plus, en France, l’utilisation des armes par les civils est extrêmement limitée, de par ce fait, le policier ont rarement l’occasion de faire usage de leur arme, du moins, beaucoup moins souvent qu’aux États-Unis…
Je pense que tout cela contribue fortement a la crainte qu’ont les Américains face au policier : ils ont peur pour leur vie et c’est compréhensible.

En France, les sentiments vis à vis de lapolice sont très partagés. En effet, une grande partie des gens se sentent en sécurité en présence de la police tout en ayant un sentiment d’inquiétude lors d’une rencontre directe.

http://www. lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/quatre-francais-sur-cinq-aiment-leurs-policiers_1 756 768…

Cet article détaille des statistiques sur le sujet, avec une analyse de l’évolution des résultats depuis les attentas. La France a vu agir le Police en Janiver et cela a permi une forte augmentation de la popularité. Il n’empêche que la relation directe inspire la méfiance, ce qui est normal puisqu’on a tous des petites choses à se reprocher.

Thank you for those responses. It is evident that there are some subtle differences between how police are regarded in the United States and in France. It was interesting to see the few French remarks about defiance because on the American side there was a lot more hesitance regarding the police. Like the comments before have identified, I think this comes down to the current problems with police violence in the United States. I think that there is a large difference between how each race regards police officers at this time in the United States because of the media’s concentration on police brutality and unjust discrimination. American responses regarding the police would also vary depending on which region and city the person was from. Cities that have more poverty tend to have worse police reputations because of the increases in crime and the increased conflict.

I agree very much with @lnb. Because communities in America are so different, the opinion of the police here would vary dramatically. Thanks to all the recent media portrayals of police brutality throughout the country, however, issues with the police are largely a concern for minority (mostly black) groups/communities. But since the majority of the American population is white, then that technically means most Americans have a fairly normal relationship with the police (i. e. not so different from the majority in many other developed countries), and all the negatives essentially stems from the minority having to deal with all the injustices lodged against them. So the responses on both sides on this matter align very well with what I would expect. Responses indicating fear would most likely come from black students while all the others (since the majority of the responses are either “just ask why and/or show/give the id” or “defiance, asking why, show id” for the American and French sides, respectively) would indicate general puzzlement, curiosity to know why, or defiance since the majority of people participating in these forums know very well they have nothing in particular to fear about the police.

I wonder also if part of the reason the American responses are more hesitant is not only because of recent police violence, but also a greater feeling of powerless against the government. I think many people in the United States feel as if government is a big machine which one cannot influence in any way, and as a result feel as if they have no part in it, but are merely subject to its actions. And so when people in the United States do have to deal with government, e. g. the police, they are powerless. I wonder if this is different in France. Do people in France feel as if they have more of a say and influence in government? Does this carry over to a feeling of greater security around the police?

I found it interesting that many Americans said that they would provide their id even though they weren’t legally obligated to.
I have a few questions for both American and French students.
In the United States, if there is no probable cause etc, and a police officer just walks up to you on the street (ie you are not suspected of anything or operating a vehicle) and asks to see your id, you are not always required to provide it. I did not know this fact until I started reading these responses and realized I didn’t know a whole lot about the law regarding providing identification to police officers. Some states have additional “stop and identify” statues beyond those specified in federal law, and this page links to the individual “stop and identify” clauses for each state that has them: https://en. wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes.
I was wondering how aware Americans are about what rights they do or do not have, because I didn’t know that I wasn’t legally required to provide identification to a police officer when asked (assuming no probable cause etc) until about an hour ago.
To French students: How aware do you think people in France are about their personal rights?

The French students were either very defiant or very compliant. I think whether the student was defiant or compliant depended on the personality of the student. The American students were a lot more curious to find out why they were being questioned. Some American students were scared or nervous about being questioned. If I had not done anything wrong I would not feel scared about being confronted by police – I would be angry. My theory is that the American students felt scared or nervous because they had a bit of a guilty conscious. Maybe they were speeding or being too rowdy. In America there have been multiple cases with police brutality; my question for the French students is how the police behave and are there ever any issues with police using too much force?

It seems to me that although both the French and American students believe that one should be respectful towards the police, I feel that the French have more faith in the integrity of their police system. A question that I have is that how often, in France, do we hear about police brutality or unlawful conduct amongst the police? This is something we hear and discuss often in America and I think it feeds, somewhat, our mistrust of the police.

As someone who has been stopped by the police in NYC a number of times, I can definitely attest to the idea that in those situations I felt rather powerless. Despite the fact that I never have broken the law or done anything bad, when a police officer comes up to you there’s this feeling that no matter what you your fate is in their hands. There was one specific time where my school had a day off from class so that we could attend various workshops. Our workshop leader sent me and 3 other students to go out and get supplies and while we were outside we were stopped by the police, put into a cop car, and nearly driven to the local precinct because we were considered to be “skipping school.” The police officers that were handling us wouldn’t even let us call our school and tell them what was wrong! In the end our fate, whether we were arrested or not, came down to the whim of the police officers, it seemed as if our testimony meant nothing. So in the context of powerlessness, I get it, and I understand the fear that many Americans have when they deal with the police, for this exact reason.

I also find it interesting how the French students would actually consider being defiant in a situation like this. For many Americans, specifically minorities, I think the first thought that comes to mind is fear. We are afraid that we might end up another victim of police brutality. It is interesting how the French students have a decent amount of faith in their police systems. Why dont the French students feel a need to be afraid of the police?

We have seen a lot of police brutality exposed in the U. S. and this explains the overall cautiousness and obedience of the students in the US. However I know nothing about the situation in France. How brutal are French police officers? What’s the situation in France and what is the public’s feeling towards place officers recently?

D’après les derniers commentaires, il est clair que les Américains pensent avoir peu de pouvoir et moyen de recours face à la Police. Il me semble qu’en France c’est très différent. Il existe de très nombreux droits et lois qui protègent en cas d’interpelation. Et les cas de violences policières(si elles sont découvertes) mènent toujours à un procès et une enquête interne.

Je pensais que les USA étaient réputé pour son systême judiciaire qui permet de porter plainte pour tout et rien. Et pourquoi ce n’est-il pas la cas avec le gouvernement/police ?

@Alex, I think you bring up a really good point. It’s something that a lot of people are (rightfully) upset about, because the judicial system is skewed in favor of some people (in this case, police officers themselves) when really, we’re all supposed to be equal in front of the law. I think it might be because people are more likely to believe police than people who supposedly committed a crime, or because the judges are prejudiced, or both.

@Alex - Past and current events have proven time and time again that police are often regarded above the law. If you look up anything about the Black Lives Matter movement and police brutality, you’ll find that even with video footage of a police officer clearly choke-holding a man to death (Eric Garner, NYC), the police officer was not indicted and has yet to be punished by law. It’s important to note that putting someone in a choke-hold is illegal in New York, never mind manslaughter / murder. He is currently on desk duty at the NYPD.
This is not the only case of police brutality where the police officer got off without any charges. Personally, it’s not surprising that given these circumstances, the American people are afraid of the police. Even if the people did sue the police, history shows that it wouldn’t end up in the people’s favor.

I agree with the ideas presented in the last few comments. I was wondering, based on the first response on the French side, if it is ever the case where disrespect to the police or disregard for their authority occurs? It seems that, in general, the French are respectful towards each other, so is this first response just a joke or comment on the unlikelihood of this situation?

Honestly, I am skeptical whether Americans as a whole are actually afraid of the police. While there have been lots of recent evidence suggesting police brutality here, this is something that has been going on for a long time. Thanks to the wide-spread usage of mobile devices and social media, we are more aware of what’s been going on for a long time now. But what’s been going on has mostly been targeting minorities. Most Americans are white. Of course police brutality exists against white citizens, but I’m pretty sure it’s of a very different nature than what minorities (particularly those of African-descent) have to face. So before all this media-attention of black people being slaughtered by the police, things were the same. So if anything, I’d say the majority of Americans (who are white) don’t really have as much of a reason to fear the police, as to be suspicious or concerned about their actions.

@jlampart - I’ve never done anything to cause me to be scared of the police, and nearly every police officer I’ve encountered has been polite and helpful. However, if one were to come up to me with no apparent reason and ask for my ID, even in the nicest of ways and even if I know there’s no reason to be scared, I still would be, simply because usually police don’t do that sort of thing unless they think there’s a problem. So I think a lot of people say they’d be scared because they don’t know what’s going on, not necessarily because they think the officer would hurt them.

@jlampart - I agree with laika. I am not a minority and have had almost no interactions with the police before, but if an officer were to approach me on the street and ask for my ID I would still be scared and nervous. I would also be nervous because I am generally pretty afraid of guns and police officers sometimes carry them. I know people who have done a fair amount of research about the presence of guns (their research was mostly focused on guns in households) but it all suggests that even though guns may be present in situations where no one would ever expect them to be used, they still get used a lot (for instance suicide rate in veterans is significantly higher my many orders of magnitude if a gun is present in their house).
The only time I can remember interacting with a police officer for an extended period of time is when I was working at a summer camp and he came to pick up his child. He had just come from work, and was still wearing his uniform. On his belt he still carried a gun, even though he was no longer on work. I remember being very nervous about the fact that he had a gun, even though he was off duty and there was no reason for him to ever need to use it while picking up his child. No firearms or weapons of any kind were allowed on the campus, and I remember thinking that it wasn’t right that he brought it with him, but he got away with it because he was a police officer so the rules did not apply to him.
Do police officers carry guns in France?

@jlampart Again, I can only speak for myself, but in addition to the incident I posted earlier there have been a number of times where I’ve been stopped by the police and asked for my ID. This happens fairly regularly in the subway in NYC, and almost every time despite being respectful and obedient, there’s always this sense that you have no real power in the situation. Fortunately, I’ve never experienced anything as horrible as brutality, and I’m thankful for that, but based on what I’ve seen and the experiences of many of my close friends back home in New York, the police have a strong tendency to abuse their power.

@hera013 I’m curious, what are the gun control laws like in France? I think you make a good point that Police officers in the United states are far more likely to use their weapons, though I don’t think this is necessarily because US citizens are allowed to own guns. One, because getting a “concealed” carry-permit in the United States is extremely difficult. An “open” carry permit is easier in a lot of places, but in NYC for one it’s extremely difficult to get either and I only know of one person who has one. I really do think that police violence is linked to either (a) their natural prejudice towards a person, or (b) their desire to go on a “power-trip.” Also, what happens more often than not, which seems to not have been discussed, is the idea of “self defense.” In America, police officers often resort to deadly-force in an act of “self-defense,” the validity of which is sometimes arguable. So I want to pose the question, do “self-defense” laws exist in France where a police officer is allowed to use their weapon if they feel their life is threatened? If it exists how far can this law go?

je suis dans la même situation que @lc2017, je n’ai jamais été arrêté par un agent de police, mais jamais c’est le cas, je lui montrerai mes papiers sans aucun problème, une fois que je suis sûr que c’est un vrai policier. C’est pour notre sécurité que des fois, les policiers vérifient les gens pour chercher des criminels ou des gens qui représentent des dangers sur nos vies.

@lc2017 En france le port d’arme pour un civil est totalement interdit excepté les fusils de chasses et l’achat de ceux-ci sont reglementés. Jusqu’ici les policiers n’étaient pas protégés en cas de légitime défense, ils avaient le même statut qu’un civil et une enquête était lancée. Recemment avec l’augmentation d’actes terroristes une loi est passée pour que les policiers disposent d’un régime plus favorable et le droit d’utiliser leur arme si un individu met en danger la vie d’autres personnes.

L’usage des armes à feu en France par les policiers reste très rare, je ne connais pas exactement les lois encadrant leur utilisation, mais je pense que c’est uniquement en cas de self défense comme l’a dit lc2017. Cet usage moins important vient à mon avis du fait que les armes ne sont pas autorisées auprès des civils, ce qui diminue les risques encourue par les forces de l’ordre. La plupart des interventions “violentes” des forces de l’ordre aujourd’hui se passent dans les manifestations, suites à des débordements. Et ce ne sont généralement pas avec des armes à feu, mais plutôt avec des armes comme le flash ball, qui ont causé de graves lésions chez certaines personnes ces dernières années.
Si les français ont moins peur des policiers, je pense que c’est simplement parce qu’il y a eu moins d’accidents mortels les impliquant en France qu’aux USA.

@frenchisinteresting: en France, il y a aussi des cas violence policière, mais beaucoup moins qu’aux États-Unis. Il y a beaucoup de cas ou les policiers outrepassent leur pouvoir, mais ça ne va pas aussi loin que ce que l’on voit chez vous et je suis sûr que la plupart de ces cas ne sont pas connues de la population.

Je suis vraiment surprise de ce que vous venez de dire à propos de la police américaine !! Vous n’avez même pas la liberté de vous défendre d’après ce que @lc2017 a dit ? Bon, j’aime bien savoir comment fonctionnent les prisons américains et quelles sont les conditions de vie des prisonniers.

@laika @Jessica @lc2017 Interesting responses. You are all right about the fact that I neglected to consider fear induced not by anticipated harm, but by confusion, general fear of guns or abuse of power. I think the latter three reasons can be generalized well to many other countries though, where the police in general don’t connote a positive symbol of justice. But then, are the police (in general) any more positive in France than here in the US? That is, neglecting police brutality against minorities and the media coverage of it, and taking what’s left, are the police in America then any more fear-inducing than the police in France? Or has all the recent media coverage of police brutality here in America subconsciously caused us to associate “fear” with the every day American police officer?
@acheknoun As you mentioned, similar issues with the police occur in France, but much less than America, and a lot of French citizens don’t know about it. Isn’t that because of two main reasons: 1. America is much larger and so the frequency of incidents is larger than in France, and 2. The media has been zooming in so much on police brutality recently here in the US?
Do any of you believe the American police are inherently more prone to violence, misdemeanor or abusing their power than the French police (ignoring the media’s recent coverage of things)?

@jlampart je suis tout a fait d’accord avec toi sur les deux raisons que tu a donné. Je n’irai jusqu’à dire que les policiers américains sont plus enclins aux violences et aux abus d’autorité, je pense plutôt qu’ils sont plus enclins à le faire plus facilement, de par les situations qui peuvent se présenter a eux, comme le fait que de civil puissent se procurer des armes notamment…

@jchambre Thanks for your response! I really find it interesting that firearms, other than those used explicitly for hunting, are completely forbidden for French citizens. I want to get some of your opinions on this topic, because it branches off into something else that I’m also interested in. In the United States many people are afraid of what we call “Gun Control,” because they are afraid that if civilians aren’t allowed to own guns, then they won’t be able to protect themselves against other people with guns, or abusive law enforcement. Do people in France share this sentiment? It seems like you probably don’t because even despite the fact that only police officers and other law enforcement agents are allowed to carry firearms, the majority of you guys don’t feel threatened by this, or maybe I’m wrong and misinterpreting.

@jlampart I would like to politely disagree with your conclusion that the media has been focusing in more on police brutality lately. Police brutality has been going on for as long as I can remember, particularly in New York (as a young child I was always told to be wary of the police for this reason, even if I didn’t do anything wrong). If you’re curious just check out https://en. wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department_corruption_and_misconduct. What I would agree with however, is that with the advent of social media and cell phone cameras, incidents like with Eric Garner become more shocking, because despite clear, video-camera, evidence, the responsible officer still wasn’t indicted. I really do think that fear of the police comes from this idea that for some reason, despite what it says on paper, they are above the law, as @Jessica mentioned.

@ achekoun: You bring up a very interesting point. It is true that obtaining arms (especially guns) is not very difficult in the US, and that therefore it is quite possible for a police officer to encounter an armed civilian. However, it is not true that most people in the US own guns. I have two questions for the French students, just out of curiosity:

1) What is your view on guns in America (approximately what proportion of people do you think have guns in the US)?

2) Do you believe that it would be very difficult to obtain a gun in France, especially in relation to the US?

@jlampart - I don’t think it’s fair to say that most Americans are white - they technically only make up 60% of the demographic. I wouldn’t say that’s “most”. Also, I completely agree with @laika and @jessica - if a police officer came up to me and randomly asked for my ID in the US, I’d be pretty worried at the very least. Regardless of the negative media attention the police have been getting, many of them are larger than me and look like they could easily overpower me - just like how I would be wary of some random guy coming up to me on the street to talk, I’d be wary of a police officer, but even more so because they’re in uniform, carrying weapons, and could seriously hurt me.

The police situation is interesting to me especially because in China, the police are considered a complete joke. If a police officer in China came up to me doing something like this I could probably yell at them for disturbing me and walk away. That’s not something I would even consider doing here in the States.

@lc2017 I agree that police brutality has been going on for a long time, as I stated in my first post. What I was saying was that it has been highlighted more in the media in recent years due to the very expansion of mobile devices, social media, etc. It has always existed, yes, but there hasn’t been this much of a dialogue surrounding it till now given the recent technological advancements in our society.
@hera013 By “most”, I meant significantly larger than any other demographic group in the country and greater than 50% of the population. I should’ve clarified that better. White Americans comprise ~75% of the total American population (my source: https://en. wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States), which is both greater than 50% is significantly larger than even the second largest group (~13%).
But as @acheknoun touched upon what I was trying to convey, American police officers aren’t necessarily so much more menacing than their French counterparts for the very reasons I outline above.

Well I know from my own experiences and how I have been raised that I if any officer asks for my ID that I cooperate and respond as politely as possible. Not necessarily due to growing up as a black male in DC but also having dealt with police in Kenya who carry automatic weapons and frequently harass and demand bribes. So I’ve just always been wary of the police. Therefore I definitely think it’s possible for the police in France to be very different from the police in France mainly varying in ingrained societal corruption. Is there a societal flaw that is evident in the French police system similar to the racism in the American system?

Wow, I think this is the most interesting discussion thread that I have read on these forums.
It’s really interesting to learn that in France, arms are banned except for use in hunting and that not all police officers carry guns. It makes me wonder how the views that people typically have of guns vary between countries. For instance in the US, action movies that features people going around and shooting things and blowing them up, like James Bond, Die Hard, and Mission Impossible are extremely popular. Are those sorts of movies also popular in France?

@jlampart - this isn’t really related to this conversation at all, but um, 75% includes Hispanics and Latinos, and last I checked, they were still considered a minority whether or not they’re white passing. Americans that are ethnically European white compose up of 60% of the population, although I see what you mean with them being greater than the second largest group (which, incidentally, are Hispanic/Latinos, at 16%).

@Jessica: Les films d’action américains ont aussi beaucoup de succès chez nous, et on a même de la chance d’avoir généralement de bonnes voix françaises pour traduire les voix originales. Après, malgré cela, j’ai l’impression que cela ne change pas grand-chose concernant l’opinion générale des gens vis-à-vis des armes. En même temps, ce n’est pas parce qu’on adore quelque chose dans une fiction que l’on a envie après de le reproduire ensuite (les guerres mondiales nous ont bien calmé, je pense). Après historiquement parlant, la France n’a jamais eu les mêmes relations avec les armes que les USA, où avoir une arme était quasi aussi nécessaire que de l’eau pour survivre. ;)

Une discussion vraiment très interessante des deux côtés. Et j’ajoute qu’il serait très difficile d’interdire les armes aux USA pour 2 raisons, il est impossible de récupérer toutes les armes des citoyens et les lobbies d’armement ont trop de pouvoir. Donc on ne peut pas imaginer une police avec moins de droits aux USA. Mais les bavures policières sont un problème grave chez vous tandis que la France est plus concernée par les détournements de fonds, récupération des biens saisis etc… C’est évidemment bien moins grave qu’atteindre l’intégrité physique d’une personne mais ça pourri tout autant le milieu. Et je pense que les individus vivant en banlieue des grandes villes françaises auraient beaucoup plus de choses à redire sur l’attitude des policiers que nous.