It seems like we have similar responses, although more of the ENSEIRB students said they wouldn’t do anything. In the US, we are progressively moving to understand that such negative reinforcement only causes resentment, and so this kind of discipline is not accepted. Do you think this is more of a common way to discipline children in France, or is it more that the French feel a bit more reserved in telling others how they should act/raise their kids?

I think it difficult for an outsider in a supermarket to convince the mom to change her way of educating her child, but communication should still be encouraged. I like the idea of showing her a slow motion video. She may realize how bad she looks and start changing her behavior.

I read a book about education written by ‎Jean-Jacques Rousseau called “Émile”. Has anyone else read it?

I feel that in the United States, there is a movement to interfere a lot with the family education of children. This can conflict with a lot of the more conservative and traditional educational ways that includes spanking. I feel that too much interference can negatively affect society yet there is little action being taken. I would like to know if France has laws that influence how parents educate their children? How is the response different based on conservative and liberal families?

I think that Xueying’s idea of showing a slow-motion video is pretty interesting because the parent would be able to see how scary this is for the child. Our opinions are those of outsiders, a perspective from which slapping a child is wrong. However, do you think that, as a parent, it is always possible to remain patient? Do you think that a slap could be acceptable under some circumstances?
Regarding the book “Émile”, I recently learned about it in my History class. Rousseau tries to describe the ideal upbringing of a child, which maintains the natural goodness of men and respects the fragility of childhood. I must say I was surprised to learn of his recommendations of leniency since the book was written in the XVIII century.

I find it quite interesting how many MIT students spoke directly about their feelings while this was not observed to the same degree in ENSEIRB students. In response to Sabri, I personally feel that while a parent may not remain patient, a slap is never acceptable. If an adult slaps another, this can be classified as assault, a misdemeanor. Why, then, is it acceptable when it’s your own child?
A more general question, almost a hypothetical one at that: Of the people who were treated similarly by their parents, how many would slap a child in the store? Would they see that their parents raised them the same way and do the same, or would they specifically make an attempt not to put their children through the same scenario? d

Also, something interesting I found: In 2006, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child pushed for all physical punishment against children to be banned., calling it “legalized violence against children.” 192 countries ratified the treaty created this committee. The two who didn’t were Somalia and the United States.
(Source: https://www. apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking )

I’m personally deeply disapproving of the use of aggression as a means for education. I think kids who grow up in an abusive household are more likely to recur to violence, assault and crime as adults, as well as being more prone to developing mental illness. How can we draw a line between “occasional aggression” and “abuse”? I think that’s too challenging, since every kid will be affected differently, and we might just not be knowledgeable enough to know if we’re educating or traumatizing. We might as well be teaching them that it is acceptable to react with violence if someone’s not acting right. For all these reasons, I think it’s always better to find other ways to educate.

Since the majority of students of ENSEIRB responded that they wouldn’t do anything: would you not do anything because you believe violence is justifiable for educating or because you prefer not to get involved in what you think it’s someone’s personal affair? Can violence be as effective as oral communication in disciplining?

I also wonder if the answers would be different if we were talking about slapping a young girl or a young boy. In general, in the patriarchal society that we live in, it is more widely accepted that boys can be disciplined by more rigid methods and girls should be treated more gently.

To see such an action, especially performed in a public environment, you must choose how to act between the two alternatives: to react or to remain indifferent. Each of these two behaviors will weigh on your conscience.

- Reaction is a bold action that probably helps the child at the moment and makes the mother aware to not do such an action again (at least in public). In that way the mother would understand that the reaction caused by her unworthy behavior should not be repeated, because it violates one of the many rights of the child, namely that of being protected from physical violence, or any other type of violence and and because it causes psycho-social harm to the child.

- Indifference, on the other hand, can be a way to let the mother and child resolve their disagreement with each other between them (if such behavior is inappropriate), without the intervention of random people who do not know the reason for the event. But this indifference will probably bring to mind the question of why you did not give your mother a piece of advice that, whatever the child’s behavior may have been, there is never any reason for him to be physically abused. Although this is not extreme violence, it is violence that has consequences for the child.

That is why I approve the first approach more.

I agree with has been said before, highlighting how we are changing towards punitive measures for children that do not involve physical punishment, but rather through talking and maybe prohibiting children from doing what they want (no going out, no playing videogames, and the such). I think it is important to highlight how this less physical measures are going to be passed generationally, until physical punishment vanishes as a thinkable action.

I agree with dayanne’s point that despite MIT and ENSEIRB students share a negative viewpoint towards the use of violence, MIT students seem more willing to take action. However, I think it might be premature to talk about an abusive household just from a mother slapping a child in a supermarket. A weak slap after a child throws a fit and doesn’t respond to verbal arguments might not constitute enough evidence, and so I would understand that a person hesitates to act. It seems that most MIT students feel strongly against any form of violence, does the French side share this view? If not, what is the “socially acceptable” limit to the use of violence for educational purposes in France?

I agree with fjonap in that reaction is the approach I would take. I think that social pressure can change our behavior, and that saving face/image matters to a lot of people. That being said, not necessarily intervening directly but having a noticeable negative reaction is what I would do, and I’d imagine that if the mom slaps her kid in public fairly often, that other people nearby would also have a similar reaction. Maybe with enough negative social reinforcement she would at least stop doing it in public. This is also a personal opinion, but oftentimes I don’t feel like I have the right to intervene in a stranger’s life. If the mom is truly violent, then I think telling her off in public could anger her further and cause even more repercussion to the kid at home.

Bonjour,
Xueying, j’ai aussi lu Emile, quelles sont tes remarques dessus?
Je pense que chacun doit pouvoir éduquer son enfant (dans la mesure du raisonnable bien entendu). Je pense que nous avons deux visions différente de la fessée et des gifles. Elle est ici (malgré les lois et les changements sociétaux) bien ancrée et une façon de bien éduquer son enfant et d’autre part (il faut le dire) extérioriser sa frustration… Pour ma part je pense qu’une fessée (méritée bien sur) de temps en temps n’a pas de côtés négatifs.

Bonjour Raphaël!
When I was growing up, my mom would slap me in public and she spanked me a lot at home. I didn’t like it. I read Emile when I was in high school. I love the book and I wish my mom would read it. I agree that a justified spanking from time to time is fine. When the spanking gets frequent or not justified, it can bring trauma.

Bonjour,
Je suis d’accord avec Raphaël que la fessée est d’une certaine façon ancrée dans l’éducation de l’enfant, elle peut servir de moyen de dissuasion sous sa menace (sans pour autant en arriver à l’acte). Il y a cependant une juste mesure à accepter et de ne pas en abuser. Je pense personnellement qu’elle devrait être évitée mais en tant que moyen de dissuasion elle peut être une arme redoutable pour calmer les enfant (comme compter jusqu’à 3 pour que l’enfant s’arrête) . Cependant, je pense que l’éducation de l’enfant appartient principalement à sa famille (même si l’école y participe également) et cela explique pourquoi la plupart des personne (sauf acte d’une extrême violence) n’interviennent pas dans ce genre de situation. J’ai remarqué que chez vous beaucoup de réponses exprime l’idée d’aller chercher un agent de sécurité ou un membre du personnel du supermarché, pensez-vous qu’un vendeur est une plus grande légitimité que vous à intervenir dans ce genre de cas?

Salut Xueying,
Cette situation de violence perpétuelle doit être difficile à vivre…
Pour revenir à Rousseau il dit “L’enfant n’est méchant que parce qu’il est faible ; rendez-le fort, il sera bon”. Ainsi me vient deux questions: un enfant “faible” (physiquement et moralement ou en manque d’amour) compense sa frustration par des actions mesquines?
La fessée (avec modération) rend elle fort?

Bonjour tous le monde,

Je suis d’accord avec Raphaël sur le fait que la fesée ou la gifle est ancrée dans la société française. C’est personnellement comme cela que j’ai été éduqué, donc ce comportement ne me choque pas. A juste dose et lorsque la situation est justifiée, évidemment!

En France, il me semble que des lois ont été adoptées il y a quelques années dans le but d’interdire la fessée et la gifle dans le cadre de l’éducation. Je suppose que suppose que cela a pour but d’éviter les dérives, car il est difficile de juger de la légitimité de l’acte en intervenant seulement au moment où il a lieu. Par exemple, l’enfant peut être insupportable depuis plusieurs jours et “l’ultime bêtise” qui a donné lieu à la gifle de la part de la mère peut paraître insignifiante.

C’est pour cela que demander à un agent de sécurité ou un membre du personnel du supermarché me parait déplacé. Cette personne ne connaitra pas la situation et son jugement ne changera pas les faits. De plus, je trouve que cette intrusion serait négative car chacun élève ses enfants comme il le souhaite. Je comprends cependant qu’on puisse être choqué par cet acte pour différentes raisons, et s’il n’y a pas de signe d’abus (des claques injustifées à répétition par exemple), il ne faut pour moi par intervenir.

Hello,
I also have the same question as Maya with regards to French society being reserved - is it common for strangers to approach you and tell you something? Furthermore, it appears from the responses that physical discipline is less negatively perceived in French society than in American society. In my country, physical discipline is rather common and this social acceptance is usually the reason that many people there have the same responses as those seen in the ENSEIRB side, i. e., they are indifferent about it. Could this be the case too in France? Is physical discipline common or socially accepted?

Bonjour,

Pour répondre à la question de Gianna, il est plutôt rare qu’un étranger vienne nous parler, et quand il le fait, c’est souvent pour demander un renseignement vite fait, pas pour nouer des liens. Je pense que les gens sont plus réservés en France qu’aux USA.

Je ne pense pas que les violences physiques soit vraiment acceptées en France, c’est juste que nous n’aimons pas intervenir dans les affaires des autres, ou leur dire comment éduquer leurs enfants.

Je pense aussi qu’il n’y a pas beaucoup de maltraitances physques sur les enfants en France.

I do not agree with the opinion that a slap, no matter how light, even to a limited extent, would help calm the child or improve his behavior. Any form of violence is a violation of the child’s rights and can be classified as “mild” or “strong”. Each of them causes physical or psychological harm to the child. The personal experiences that everyone brings belong to the past; times change and so do people.

I believe that parents (or adults in general) that lose patience and hit their children under the pressure of stress or their emotional burden often feel very guilty afterwards. Parents should try to educate their children without using punishment or using a form punishment that doesn’t include physical or psychological violence, but explanation, persuasive communication. If children are educated forcefully, they will think that violence is the right way to solve problems and could end up doing the same with their families and children in the future, as well as in other cases in their interactions in society.

I do not agree with the opinion that a slap, no matter how light, even to a limited extent, would help calm the child or improve his behavior. Any form of violence is a violation of the child’s rights and can be classified as “mild” or “strong”. Each of them causes physical or psychological harm to the child. The personal experiences that everyone brings belong to the past; times change and so do people.

I believe that parents (or adults in general) that lose patience and hit their children under the pressure of stress or their emotional burden often feel very guilty afterwards. Parents should try to educate their children without using punishment or using a form punishment that doesn’t include physical or psychological violence, but explanation, persuasive communication. If children are educated forcefully, they will think that violence is the right way to solve problems and could end up doing the same with their families and children in the future, as well as in other cases in their interactions in society.

As someone not from the US, I can understand the different cultural visions from both sides. I’ve seen parents pinch their little kids or the extreme of giving them a spank and while I understand that it’s hard to draw a line between what is considered abusive or helpful, I think to the extent that the law is clear, parents still have the right to train their kids as they please. I think it may be a cultural influence for people to want to go up to the parents and say something as most MIT students would. I think in other cultures that may be considered rude, particularly when it’s a child, with no parenting experience, telling a parent what to do. I am very unsure about actual research that supports the idea that children who get spanked end up becoming violent in future but I have seen things play out either way from the experiences of those I know.

Bonjour,
En réponse à fjonap, cet écart de point de vue sur ce point particulier est le symbole d’une totale fracture sur la considération de l’enfant. J’ai l’impression qu’il est beaucoup plus libre aux Etats-Unis, c’est un enfant roi et surtout c’est au monde extérieur de s’adapter à lui. La fessée a un double rôle : recadrer l’enfant, et instaurer une “menace” à brandir pour le forcer à agir d’une certaine façon. En quelque forte en éduquant un enfant on le façonne.
Je crains que l’écart de vision sur la place de l’enfant et la façon de l’éduquer nous pousse à voir votre jeunesse comme mal élevée et vous voir la notre comme aux mains de tortionnaires!

Bonjour,
Je suis d’accord avec Raphaël sur la vision de l’enfant roi aux Etats-Unis. Je pense que ce n’est pas le seul pays à adopter ce modèle d’éducation, c’est par exemple le cas de la Suède. Cependant, si l’enfant est plus libre, il parfois tellement placé sur un piédestal, qu’il est parfois difficile de les contrôler ou d’exercer une quelconque forme d’autorité. Cependant, selon certains, cette vision permettrait de développer la créativité de l’enfant, que certains experts semblent ne plus trouver dans notre jeunesse française.
La question de l’éducation est très difficile. En effet, c’est la période où les enfant s’imprègne le plus de tout ce à quoi il est confronté.
Il me semble bon pour l’enfant qu’il ne soit pas soumis à des situations démesurément violente ou stressante. Mais cela est difficile à contrôler, je pense à la télévision, à l’école ou les enfants partagent leurs visions et leurs “cultures”.