Il est interressant de voir qu'aucun français ne compte en parler au surveillant, alors que plusieurs d'entre vous seraient prêts à la faire.

Est-ce une différence de culture ? Est-ce une différence de solidarité ? Au MIT, y a t'il beaucoup de proximité et des liens forts entre les élèves ? Vous avez des activités de cohésion ensemble, ou alors il y a plutôt un esprit de compétition sain/malsain ?

Je crois en effet qu'il s'agit d'une différence culturelle. Il me semble que dans la culture anglo-saxonne, la délation est une chose normale, un devoir civique, qui permet au système de fonctionner. Alors qu'en France, la délation est assez mal vue.

I believe that it is not a cultural difference. While it seems that we have a lot of "tattle tales" (people who tell on you) as compared to the french responses, I think that overall the response would be to not say anything. As far as the french responses, I think the overall response is this as well. 

Especially in our setting, plagiarism and cheating are strongly frowned upon and leads to expulsion from MIT.

To respond to Jonathan, I think there are many strong connections between students. I've noticed that there are many study groups for those who are in the same year and studying the same course. There are also many activities outside of academics that many students join such as sports, cultural groups, dancing groups, etc... I think MIT is rather lucky in that the spirit of competition exists, but it is much healthier than in other schools due to the fact that we don't have a Dean's list or ranking for when we graduate. In my opinion this helps foster working in groups and having common goals rather than fighting for the top spot. 

How is the competition in Enseirb-Matmeca? Do you have strong student connections? 

I agree with Judy. It is not a cultural difference. Everyone agrees cheating should not happen, but we are all hesitant on how to react. I think MIT is one of the least competitive schools for how academically talented the students are. The collaboration factor is one of the main reasons I chose to come to MIT. In the US, however, things seem to be very competitive. As a country, do you think there is strong competition. If so, what for?

While I agree that overall, there isn't much competition between MIT students, and that one of the things I love here is the spirit of collaboration, I also wanted to point out that many classes are curved here, so students are graded relative to the class' performance as a whole. This is not intended to promote competition between students, but rather to make sure we're graded fairly and are not punished for a bad teacher's inability to teach effectively.

How are grades assigned in France? Is it directly related to the absolute number of points you receive, or are students compared to the class average? Is it possible that the presence of curved grades here contributes to the slightly more frequent response of telling the teacher about cheating?

Also, does the general French attiitude of leaving things alone and not interfering in other people's business also apply to crime, not just academic dishonesty? Are there ever cases where people witness crimes being committed but purposely don't pay attention or don't interfere?

I've never seen anyone at MIT cheat during an exam. Does it ever happen in France? I think it depends on the culture set by the school, by society in general. For example, if instructors don't do anything about cheating and let it go by, of course there will be cheating. But that is not the case here. I think if someone got caught, there would be serious consequences, so it doesn't happen much.

Yeah, I think the response to cheating from students will probably be the same in France and here - people probably won't say anything if they see cheating at an examen.

I'm also curious to know whether grades are curved at INSERB. Also, what is the grade distribution usually - how many students in the class get A, how many fail etc.

Also, how challenging are the exams. Are the means usually around the same, or do they differ by class? I think generally here biology and chemistry averages are usually between 60-70%, but I think in many engineering classes, the averages are lower than that.

Guillaume,

You mentioned that telling on cheating students is seen as a bad thing. Is that because in France in general making sure one "mind's their own business" is a matter of politeness and civility?

Judy :

Je ne pense pas qu'il y ait vraiment une réelle compétition à L'ENSEIRB. La place dans la promotion ne permet que d'être prioritaire sur les options et sur les échanges à l'étranger... Beaucoup d'élèves se contentent d'avoir la moyenne à leur UV pour valider les semestres.

Les élèves sont généralement assez solidaires et s'entraident assez souvent.

Les élèves sont-ils réellement préoccupés par leur notes au MIT ? Si oui, pourquoi ?

Meghan :

La partie compétition correspond à une compétition entre écoles voire entre filière d'une école ... mais assez peu au sein d'une même promotion.

C'est le cas aussi au MIT non ?

Ann :

Les notes sont généralement bien réparties ( selon une courbe de Gauss ) avec une majorité autour de la moyenne souvent au dessus ... parfois en dessous.

Généraliser cette attitude de passivité par rapport à la triche au domaine du crime serait un peu capilotracté ( tiré par les cheveux ). Je connais des personnes qui n'hésite pas à appeler la police dès qu'il y a un problème... Tout le monde n'est pas toujours prêt à empêcher des voyous armés d'agresser quelqu'un mais pour un accident de voiture ( par exemple avec un délit de fuite ) les gens ne font pas semblant de rien voir et aide le(s) blessé(s).

Je suppose qu'il en est de même pour les USA ?

Galina :

Jettes un coup d'oeil à ma réponse pour Judy.
Pour ce qui l'en est de la difficulté, cela dépend des matières et des professeurs qui les corrigent... ( cela est généralement très variables ).
Les matières culturelles sont généralement celles avec les notes les plus indulgentes mais d'autres comme la programmation et les mathématiques notent assez sévèrement. ( Logique, nous sommes en informatique )

Mais jusqu'à maintenant, j'ai pu observé que la plupart des matières envoyant des élèves aux rattrapages sont ces matières scientifiques parfois même plus de la moitié ( ou un peu moins ) de la promotion !

Oui, en un sens. Comme ça ne nous apporterait rien qu'il se fasse prendre, le dénoncer serait un acte gratuit. Mais je comprends très bien que dans une situaion de compétition, tricher soit très mal vu et il devient alors normal de prévenir quelqu'un.

Christophe, thanks for your very thorough reply! About the assignment of grades, the distribution is usually similar here, but I was curious about whether students' individual grades are related to the overall performance of the class. For example, while 2 classes at MIT may both have a Gaussian distribution, if one class' average grade is 50 while the other's is 75, a student in the first class with a 50 would likely get a B, same as a student in the second class with a 75, even though their numerical grades are different. Is that also the case at ENSEIRB?

In response to your question about reporting crime, I think in general Americans would not only help the victim, but also keep an eye out for the offender's license plate, for example, to give the police a way to identify them. I think most people would intervene if they saw a violent crime occurring, but in recent years there have been some disturbing reports of people who witnessed violent crimes and not only didn't do anything to help, but watched pasively or even filmed. I also think the attitude towards intervention may differ depending on what region you're in - some large cities, like New York, have a reputation for the attitude "see no evil, hear no evil." However, overall I think people would probably react.

I noticed when looking at responses to other forums that the French seem to have a more indifferent attitude in situations where the problem is more private (for example, a cheating student or a mother with her child), but in more public conflicts, such as a person cutting in line, the French are just as quick to react as Americans. So I wonder if the difference we see in this situation is really due to a difference in attitude, or a difference in the perceived impact of the conflict. For example, the examples of crimes you mentioned are violent crimes, where the offender is directly harming someone else. What about white collar crimes, such as embezzlement, which are sometimes called victimless crimes? Would the French treat that situation similar to the cheating student, and leave it be?

I agree with Anne that it seems that the French are less prone to intervene in private matters, such as cheating, then in public ones, like the situation where people talk in the movies. I think the difference is that in the US there is a sense of justice and of duty to protect it. Laws are strongly applied here, and people are certain to get punished if caught (whether a hit and run or cheating in an exam).  Here, it does not matter if it is a private situation, peple are likely to butt in to stand for what is right. In France, is punishment a certainty for wrongdoers? Someone who cheats and is caught, or someone who committed corruption and is denounced is certainly going to get punished? How often can people get "off the hook" in France?

At MIT we all have to take a certain general classes to graduate along with our classes needed to major. I really do not think that competition is based on major here. At other colleges, some intense pre-medical school programs are highly cut throat, but, overall, there is considerably less competition at MIT.

How early does one decided what field they are going into in France?

I actually feel as if a significant portion of the American population would not get involved so long as it didn't concern them directly, hiding behind the rational of helping taking up too much time, which they can't afford. 

For instance, my family and I watch quite a bit of TV courtrooms and (despite the fact that they're obviously overly dramatized) a large number of cases on these shows deal wtih car accidents. In the sum total of probably close to 1,000 car accidents on these shows, fewer than 20 have had witnesses give testimony to the officer taking report of the accident. That being said, this observation is skewed because, had a witness been available, guilt would have been easily assessable, thus removing the need for a court. 

My point is: if people can't take 1 hour out of their day to wait for and report what they saw to the police for something as quick as a car accident, how can they be expected to do so for a more time-intensive violent crime, which could include multiple days of presence in court or the stress of a cross-examination?

Christophe-

You mentioned French students being alright with getting average grades for their UV..?

What is the UV?

I think at MIT grades are very important to students and therefore, everyone is trying their best. That is because the places where students want to go after MIT (graduate school, job, medical school) are usually super competitive, so if your GPA is low your chances of furthering your goals are also lower. As a result, there is a lot of pressure, I think, to do as well as possible.

I think grades at MIT are definitely important, but they have significantly less meaning if you are not pursuing graduate school or medical school after graduation. In France do most people enter their carreer right after getting their degree or do they pursue higher level education?

Susan : je te rassure, en France aussi un étudiant pris en train de tricher est assuré d'une lourde sanction (interdiction de passer un examin pendant 5 ans, et cela inclut par exemple le permis de conduire...).

Meghan : tout dépend de la personne, par exemple, j'ai choisi en prépa (bac +2) que j'allais entrer dans une école d'informatique. Certains font leur choix bien avant et peuvent orienter leurs études avant le bac au lieu de faire des études généralistes.

Chrysonthia : En fait, toutes les matières qu'on nous enseigne ici sont séparées en différents UV (unité de valeur). Notre moyenne est composée de la moyenne de tous ces UV. Ce sont comme des petites moyennes séparées par thème. Par exemple, nous avons un UV programmation, un UV science de l'ingénieur (management, langues...), ect...