Compare the interactions between the teachers and the school administration, the other teachers, and the interactions between teachers and parents. / Comparez les interactions des profs. avec l'administration de l'école et les autres profs et les interactions entre profs. et parents.
Dans le film "Entre les murs", le professeur est strict quant au suivi des règles établies par l'établissement. Il veut absoluement que tout le monde les suivent : aussi bien les élèves que les professeurs. Dans l'autre film, c'est tout autre chose, il y a un rejet du système éducatif. Le professeur est complétement contre les manières de son directeur. On en voit très bien l'exemple quand le professeur s'exaspère que le directeur veuille absoluement qu'on frappe avant d'entrer dans son bureau quelquesoit l'urgence.
Pour ce qui est des relations avec les parents, dans le film "Entre les murs", le professeur n'intervient auprès des parents que lors de la rencontre parents/professeur. Il ne cherche pas le contact amical, ou n'essaie pas de conprendre vraiment s'il y a un problème avec la famille, il reste renfermé. Par contre, dans le film "Dangerous minds", le professeur veut absoluement aider ses élèves jusqu'à aller parler à leurs parents dans leur maison.
Dans "Dangerous Mind", on voit clairement que le professeurs a aussi un rôle social très important. Mais dans l'autre film, même si les professeurs semblent sentir qu'ils ont aussi une responsabilité sociale, on dirait qu'ils sont finalement enlissés dans un système duquel il ne peuvent s'écarter : la conseil de discipline n'était pas voulu par le professeur, mais il a eu lieu malgré lieu. Comme il le dit lui-même : "Je n'ai pas le choix ! ". Le problème est donc plus un problème de "système", qu'un problème de "mentalité d'éducation" (sans aucun jugement de valeurs).
Dans le film entre les murs, il semble que le groupe enseignant ainsi que l'administration a perdu tout contrôle sur les élèves. Ils ne savent plus comment faire pour rétablir l'ordre. La seule solution qui ressort lors du conseil de classe est d’augmenter encore plus la répression avec un système à point comme le permis de conduire. Ils ne parlent d’ailleurs quasiment que de la façon d’exclure un élève, et cela ne semble pas être la solution car l’exclusion devrait être une méthode dissuasive et non que l’on effectue tous les ans…
Dans le second film esprits rebelles, la classe est également hors de contrôle, mais l’enseignante utilise un autre moyen que la répression pour reprendre le contrôle de la classe. Tout d’abord elle capte leur attention en utilisant des méthodes non conventionnelles, puis pour motiver les élèves elle décide de les récompenser pour leurs efforts. Ce qui n'est pas très bien vu de l'administration.
In the film "entre les murs' the teachers all seem to have some kind of collaboration with one another, they often have big group meetings, and try to help each other out or offer suggestions to one another more. In the school in "dangerous minds" there is a real disconnect between the teachers and the administration. The administration seems more interested in following the rules than in giving their students an education and aren't receptive to the teacher's suggestions.
A United Front?
In the film "entre les murs, while there is often discord and debate among the teachers and the administration, they present a united front to the students. In return, while the students fight amonst themselves, when Souleyman is in trouble, they become one. However, in "Dangerous Minds", Michelle Pfeiffer is always standing against the administration on the side of the students. This mirrors an issue that came up during the forum about cheating: the concept in French culture of the student body as an entity against the teachers.
Sometimes, in some school teachers are so desperate that they just try to find their own way to make the class interesting which is quite a challenge. But they have no choice, because the students I am talking about have no motivation, no desire to go to school and even when expelled they wouldn't care. We saw that with parents in Dangerous minds that didn't really care that much whether their kinds go to school. But the school can't expel the whole class, so the only solution is to try to find a way for the better. That is what I think is happening in Dangerous minds. The school doesn't apply stricter rules or punishments because they know that that is just not going to give them the desired result. In contrast, in "entre le murs" the school is aware that some of these kids will actually be kind of scared to be disrespectful seeing other people being punished.
In Entre les murs, the teacher is constantly fighting with the students to do the work and to answer questions in class, while in Dangerous Minds, the teacher makes the class more interesting but still gets the students to learn. I also think it's interesting that though there were two different teaching situations in the movies, the students in the class became more united as time went on, in Entre les murs, when Souleymane has the possibility of being expelled and in Dangerous Minds when the teacher wants to leave.
There is definitely more camaraderie between the teachers in "Entre les Murs". They even group together to help the asian kid who might be deported. They come together to celebrate. They ask each other for help and confide in each other when they are stressed or frustrated. In "Dangerous Minds", Ms. Johnson seemed to be left to her own devices. She has to try different things in order to attempt to teach her students. The other teacher sometimes laughs at her (like when she brought the candy bars to school) and sometimes he helps her. Mostly, the other teachers either criticize her methods or scoff at them or laugh at them. She does not seem to obtain much support from other teachers, with an exception to maybe Mr. Griffith? (Hal).
Category: Interactions b/w teachers, admins, and parents
In Dangerous Minds it appeared that all the other teachers and administrators had already prejudged the kids in the Academy class, almost assuming that the kid's destiny is doomed, while the teacher in DM was different and gave back the kids the choice and power over their own destinies. She was also inclined not to prejudge the kids and was genuine in trying to help them.
It was sad to see how some of the parents didn't care about the education of their own children in DM, though I should point out that there were a few that did care (like Raul's parents). In either case, the teacher had to make an active effort to reach out to the parents by going to their homes.
Contrast that with "Entre Les Murs," where the parents come to the school for the parent-teachers conference. They seemed to care a bit more about their kids, and even in Souleman's case, she even begged to keep him in school (where in DM one of the parents took their kids out of the school).
The teachers and administration also seemed to work together better in "Entre Les Murs" too - they shared notes and gave advice to each other. Mr. Marin had adequate support from the administration, and I had the feeling that he wasn't left to his own devices when he had to deal with problems in class.
Category: Comparaison entre les professeurs, l'administration et les parents.
Dans DM, Madame Johnson allait à la rencontre des parents en cas de problèmes. Elle prête à tout faire pour garder ses élèves. Par exemple, quand elle a voulu défendre Raul, elle est partie chez lui. Alors que dans "Entre les Murs", Monsieur François n'est pas parti voir le père de Souleymane quand il a su que ce dernier est prêt à renvoyer son fils au Mali en cas d'exclusion de l'école.
Dans "Entre les murs" le principal et les autres professeurs s'intéressaient plus aux problèmex du professeur que dans DM. Ils voulaient l'aider en l'écoutant et en lui proposant des solutions. Contrairement dans DM où le principal n'arrêtait pas de rappeler les règlements de l'école à Mme Johnson sans essayer de comprendre les difficultés qu'elle rencontrait.
Reponse: comparaison entre les professeurs, l'administration et les parents
Je pense que dans "Entre les murs" le professeur ne va pas voir les parents par le simple faite que par coutume cela ne le fait pas. Par contre, on peut constater que pour 'koumba" il écrit dans un cahier de liaison. Il est donc important de noter qu'en France, du moins avant l'université si je ne m'abuse, le lien entre parents, élèves et professeurs se fait par cahier.
Interactions between teachers and parents
From ELM, it seems like there is a very clear boundary between school and home and teachers are limited to the school domain. In this way, I think the title is very appropriate. The parents are always polite, but I thought there were a couple of parents who clearly already made up their minds about their children and will not believe otherwise.
However, in DM Ms. Johnson clearly does not think there is a line there. While her behavior is uncommon, it's not altogether unlikely. Parents in at-risk neighborhoods tend to fall into two categories which can be seen in DM: they respect the teacher and believe them over their children (like the parents of Emilio and Raul) or they don't want the teacher messing with the plans they've made for their children (like Durrel and Lionel's grandmother).
Dangerous Minds has such a variety of relationships. Louanne's relationship with her friend, the other teacher, is obviously very strong since he got her a job and is willing to help her out in the class. The administration, on the other hand, care soley for the rules and not the students. They threaten Louanne for her extreme teaching methods and the principal kicked Emilio out for not knocking on the door. Even though they could just let these things go and help the students, they don't care.
For Entre les murs, I agree that there is a little more camraderie. The teachers and admins try present a cohesive opinion, even if individuals disagree. The relationship between the teachers is not a particularly friendly one though. They are very serious and professional.
Between teachers and the administration:
I think that both teachers had issues with the administration, not initially, but after a while. However, the important thing to note is that in DM, the teacher was more open about her disagreements with the admistration, while in ELM, the teacher was more discreet. Small things like smoking indoors where it wasn't allowed was how the teacher in ELM showed his disagreements, however it was crucial for him to show a united front. That seems to show that the French prefer order to individualism. Whereas the americans will favor individualism despite the chaos and problems that might ensue. At least that's what I thought, any other opinions or views?
Interactions with parents and teachers
I don't think this represents most American teaching styles but LouAnne was very concerned about trust from the students so she went through the parents first to tell them "good" news about their children.
Francois on the other hand was very professional with his meetings and they took place solely in the classroom with him having no intention of sugar coating things to try to coax his students into behaving. I think most teacher parent meetings that occur are more like the ones with Francois, and I've even seen meetings where friends had to translate or send someone else to translate for their parents.
Interactions between teachers and administration
I think LouAnne's struggle with administration is something most people wish they could do when faced with an issue where the regulated method is not the most efficient one. The adminstration she had to deal with was strict about their rules but didn't care much about the students which ultimately resulted in the loss of Emilio. I think the administration wrote most of the students off as failures.
The administration in ELM did seem to care more about the students. During the meetings it was visible that the teachers really cared to the point of being angry about the students' own nonchalance about their education. The compassion of the administration and Francois was also visible when they tried to help students with their personal issues even though they never took into account that that could be what affects them in school.
Teacher and Parents:
When Louanne goes to talk to parents in DM, it is always on the student's behalf. She is there to help the student in whatever way she can, occasionally getting them out of trouble and speaking up on their behalf. In ELM, on the other hand, Mr. Marin is much less involved. He speaks to parents only at appointed conferences and when he does he is simply passing the responsibility for behavior problems over to someone else, asking the parents to fix them.
While DM certainly does not show a typical teacher, I feel that teachers here do sometimes have a similar kind of relationship to parents that Ms. Johnson does. There are definitely times when the teacher may see more potential or better behavior in a student than the parents expect. This is a stark contrast to ELM.
Do teachers and parents in France always form a group "against" the students, or are there times when a teacher may "side" with a student?
In Dangerous Minds, the teachers had a more personal relationship with the parents. They went to their homes to update the parents on the progress of their children. However, it sees that the parents were less involved in how their children were doing, with the only goal to graduate from high schoo. Many parents did not want their children to be learn extra materials, and one even pulled their kids out of school for doing so.
In Entre les Murs, the parents and teachers met in a much more traditional settings. The parents in this movie were more concerened with how their children did in school. In the parents teacher conference, the mother even stood up for her child.
Je ne suis pas d'accord, je ne pense pas que ce soit une histoire de culture ou de tradition mais juste de mentalité de la personne. On aurait très bien pu voir un professeur français faire ce qu'à fait le professeur américain.
De plus je pense qu'il faut prendre en compte le fait que les histoires ne se passent pas à la même époque et pas au même niveau d'étude.
I think that the movies are intended as a reflection on the influence of the culture and traditions on the actions and relationships in the classroom. The examples given in the movies are not necessarily what always happens and of course they are influenced by the personal histories of each character. They are focused on different age groups and are from different time periods, but the point is not to compare them directly. Rather, to compare the situations and motivations of each character and to question whether they work as broad representations of the issues that are common in both the French and American culture.
I would have to agree with Benjamin here. I don't think the storyline is as much a product or culture or traditions. It seems like each individual professor makes their own decision in teaching style, and either method could potentially work in either country. Of course, the administration, the curriculum, etc. is a product of the culture, but the storyline is completely based on the individual and I don't believe that culture makes much of a difference at all.
In the case of DM, the parents have no faith in the students. In this way, there is conflict between the teacher and the parents. The parents seem to believe the students may do no better than themselves and are destined to the same life. The parents are very pessimistic. I do not know about French culture, but this does not seem very American from my experience.
In ELM on the other hand, the parents want their students to do quite well! One even wants their child to attend a very fancy private school, this surprises the teacher - again showing the teacher to not have faith in the students deep down. I hope this is true of French parents!
I think that age does not matter that much. Teachers in my country, I believe, all have different methods of teaching but their motivation and their goals are always the same and they were all looking for respect and for discipline in class. Also, the teachers that teach in 4th grade, for instance, expect the same kind of respect as the teachers that teach 11th graders. It does not matter. So, I think we could just think of these kids as same age because their habits are already formedand they will not probably change too much anymore. I believe after certain age people do not change easily.
In actuality in the US, teachers should not visit the homes of their students. I believe it is a breach of privacy. However, the teacher in Dangerous Minds was willign to risk everything for the benefit of her students. But like you said, the movie might be trying to say that teachers aim to solve problems, regardless of the means to the solution. Would you say that the French are restricted by rules and regulations? If so, would it be fair to say that the way French teachers handle teacher-parent interactions might not be adequate in certain situations, especially in the case of problematic children in Dangerous Minds and Entre les Murs?
This also makes me wonder about how schools are run in France. Since the students in the movie had poorer and more troubled backgrounds, it was pretty typical for them to end up in a poorer, more troubled school. The better schools are much more accessible to students who have resources that these children did not and have the money to afford private or live near better funded schools. in the case of private schools, you could attend any that you wanted regardless of zoning rules. Since schools in France are controlled by the federal government and not local states, do schools receive the same amount of funding per student or is there also a difference based on the location and income of the students that attend?
I definitely think that the attitudes of the parents are dependant on the family lifestyles and what kind of community they grew up in. If everyone in their family grew up to work in the family business, whatever it might be, it would be a shock for that parent to realize their child may want to do something different with their life. They may not even believe it even if it is told to their face. To me, this may follow why there are always fairly low percentages of first generation college students. If no one else in their family did, some families may not expect that desire from their child and may not have saved money to pay for it.
In addition to Melanie's questions, I was also wondering if there are class divisions in French schools. For example, in the US, there are honors classes, regular classes, and sometimes below average classes. Therefore, students are often separated and grouped based on personal abilities. That might be a reason why in Dangerous Minds, the students are so rowdy. It could be that they were grouped into a "delinquent" class where they all do poorly in academics. Does this system exist in France as well?
I thought the headmaster in DM was very well presented as completely useless and not helpful. He didn't understand his role in the school and maybe thought the only thing that was important is to teach students to knock on the door before they enter. He was the real proof that the administration in this school was a failure. In ELM, even though these meetings and discussions were not perfect, there was some willingness from everyone to help and take active part in the process. Do you think that a system that is not working but exists is a better option than one that does not exist at all?
Parents in DM
I looked at the parents from both movies and their relation towards education and their kids. In DM the only parents that seemed to genuinely care were Raul's parents. Their thrill and surprise when they heard Raul was smart and promising kid was very touching. But the other families we had a chance of seeing were not even close to that. As the opposite example, there is Durrel and Lionel's grandmother, who doesn't care about their future and doesn't believe in education. The family of the pregnant girl also doesn't seem to encourage her into becoming more than her sister(or mother) with her child already is.
Parents in EML
On the other hand, I find parents in EML the opposite of uninterested. They come to parents/professors meetings. (I’m not sure if this is a must or not) We have Wei's family that seems to be very proud but is also the only one that criticizes their child and thinks B- is a bad grade. :) And the rest of the parents seem to have great ambitions for their children and seem very proud. A lot of them thinks education is important and they defend their children. Even Souleman's mom defends him and believes in her son.Also, in EML majority of these people are not French, while in DM, most of the parents identifies as Americans. But parents in DM seem everything but people who have American dream attitude.
So do these characters of parents tell us more about the French/American cultures? Or more about the way minorities and poor people think and behave in US/France? What do you think? I'm very interested in hearing what you think, it's hard for me to compare these parents to US or French parents since I'm neither French nor American. :)
I can at least speak a little for American parents - although my parents technically are not, I got to see a lot of interaction between my friends and their parents in high school.
For US parents, I think there is a wide range of parenting styles with regards to involvement in education. While some of my friend's parents were checking their grades and making sure that they were being challenged, many of the students parents just wanted them to get a high school diploma. They did not care how the process happened, wasn't interested, they just wanted them to be able to graduate from high school. In my district, we also had a seperate high school for students who were pregnanent or who were often in trouble. They seperated these kids out from the normal high schools. In many ways I think it was a fair representation of US cultures - obviously with some Hollywood stretches here and there!
Parenting styles definitely vary a lot with regard to education in the US. I found that this was one of the most potentially realistic ideas portrayed in DM. Even so, we were only seeing one end of the economic spectrum, and if you look beyond that, the array becomes even larger.
From what we learned in class today, teaching in French is very structured. Would this not hinder the potentials of certain students and strain the abilities of other students who require a slower pace? Do students ever fail to reach the level that is required of them? In the US, there is an emphasis on encouraging students to show creativity and think outside the box. Are there ways for the French to supplement what they learn in class?
Relationship between teachers and administration
Continuing on what Lucy said about the structure of French schools, Francois in ELM was constricted to the rules of the school. He wanted to help Suleyman but didn't think there was anything he could do. On the other hand, the teacher form DM took matters into her own hands and it seemed effective for giving the students a drive to learn. Do you think reducing the structure that teachers must follow would make it easier to help students or create more problems?
I know at my school teachers had a great deal of freedom to work with students on projects they found exciting. They also had freedom in their choice of discipline. I believe this helped students to have good relationships with teachers. It also allowed teacher to act reasonably in terms of their punishments, which in turn caused teachers to respect them.
This is a little different from what we've been talking about, but today I was discussing education systems and the differences you see from country to country and sometiems from college to college in teaching styles and focuses. I was wondering, does the teaching style in france tend to be orthodox (books, etc) or are there more hands on classes? I guess if you compare the two movies, DM was a lot less orthodox than ELM. But out of curiousity, what would you your education system as? And if you could change it, would you?
I know there are some systems that are purely based off of textbooks and written knowledge; you are not encouraged to innovate or appreciate, its more of a race of memorization and brute force.
I became interested in one question after reading the other forum. Do you think that in the situation as the one of the French teacher when he was blaimed for insulting the two girls, the school should support him and stay on his side or should the administrators punish him somehow? What is actually going to happen in France? How about USA?
Yoana brings up an interesting question, I am not sure how schools in the US deal with that. I think in my high school the administration would always take the side of the teacher, the only exception I could think of is maybe physical violence. But the one caveat to that is that the parents in my high school had a big say in all of the administrative changes. If a lot of parents spoke out against something, the administration would usually change its policy. Do parents have a big influence on policy in schools in France?